New Study Links Pet Deaths And Cancer To ‘Over-Vaccinating’

Vaccinating cats and dogs can cause a range of diseases and veterinarians are often guilty of "over-prescribing to maximize profits."

Vaccinating cats and dogs can cause a range of diseases and disorders – including autism – and veterinarians are often guilty of “over-prescribing vaccines to maximize profits“, according to a new study published by a U.S. Veterinary journal. 

Annual vaccinations have been a cash cow, for vaccine companies and Vets, for many years now. However, according to a group of vets, this revenue is created under false and misleading science and the unnecessary vaccinations are seriously detrimental to the health of our pets.

A group of Vets has also issued a Health Warning, advising pet owners to stop lining the pockets of vaccine companies:

The present practice of marketing vaccinations for companion animals may constitute fraud by misrepresentation, fraud by silence and theft by deception.

As far as Big Pharma are concerned, a fool and his money are easily parted, and pet owners are proving as easy to swindle as young parents.

Just like vaccinations for humans, the number of scheduled vaccinations cats and dogs now receive has gone through the roof compared to previous generations.

Unsurprisingly, domestic cats and dogs have never suffered as many health problems as they do now.

22,000 cats develop cancer at the site of vaccination every year in the USA. American cats are now being vaccinated in the tail or leg so that they can cut it off when it becomes cancerous,” says doglistener.co.uk.

Cancer in domestic cats has now reached epidemic proportions. The vaccine industry claims “correlation does not imply causation”, but a degree of common sense is needed here. How many tails and legs must be amputated before Vets will begin to admit the vaccinations they are pushing are high-risk?

If these figures aren’t telling enough, a further study claims that “Sixty-six per cent of all sick dogs start being sick within three months of vaccination.”

And compromised immune systems are just the start. Vaccines are also responsible for causing a range of chronic diseases to take hold, among them autoimmune haemolytic anaemia, thyroid disease, arthritis and parvovirus. Vaccines can even make your dog autistic.

Vets, pressured by vaccine companies to continually increase profits, are over-vaccinating our pets. Annual vaccines have become normalized in the U.S., when most vaccines are actually designed to last for seven years.

The vaccine industry is now so powerful that Vets are being punished for daring to treat animals on a case-by-case basis.

Dr John Robb, a leading U.S. Veterinarian, was put on probation in 2015 by the State Board of Veterinary Medicine in Connecticut, for reducing the dosage in rabies vaccinations for small dogs.

You’re telling me that if there’s a law that would force me to kill my patient, I would have to do it?” he raged.

However he received scant support from fellow Vets in an industry increasingly geared towards maximizing profit – at the expense of the health of our cats and dogs.

‘I’m Hurting My Patients With These Vaccines’

Like all veterinary students, Dr. Robb was taught in vet school that vaccines are good and prevent disease. But once he was a practicing DVM, he began to see vaccine side effects such as life-threatening anaphylaxis, as well as longer term vaccine-related disorders.

I began to read the veterinary literature like JAVMA, the Journal of the Veterinary Medical Association,” says Dr. Robb. “I started to research on my own. I came across veterinarians who had been showing that vaccines caused a lot of serious side effects, including hemolytic anemia and cancer at the injection sites.

“I had a problem now. I’m a veterinarian, and I’m hurting my patients with these vaccines.”

Dr. Robb began changing the way he did things in his practice. For example, he lengthened the intervals between vaccines, and lowered the dose because it was very clear to him that small pets couldn’t handle the same amount of vaccine as larger animals.

Unfortunately Dr. Robb, with his singular focus on the health of his patients, is a rarity in the Veterinary world.

New vets are required to swear a solemn oath when they finish their degree, “primum non nocere” or “first do no harm”. However in the race for cash, not all of them are following that creed.

Baxter Dmitry

Baxter Dmitry

Baxter Dmitry is a writer at Your News Wire. He covers politics, business and entertainment. Speaking truth to power since he learned to talk, Baxter has travelled in over 80 countries and won arguments in every single one. Live without fear.
Email: baxter@yournewswire.com
Follow: @baxter_dmitry
Baxter Dmitry
  • John Sarsfield

    I see a lot of opinion and no scientific studies to back up the serious claims made in this article.

    • Mary Beth Konesky

      above is all true……Titer your dogs before vaccinating you will be glad you did….check out Jean Dodds dmv

      • parkslopedog

        Also check out Martin Goldstein DMV who wrote a book on animal health in which there’s a chapter on vaccinations. I had a pit-mix who had been born at home and nursed by her mother for 8 weeks. Never gave her one shot. She was titerchecked at age 5, and she had full immunity. She was a big dog; her only health issue was hypothyroidism for which she took a supplement from age 2. She suddenly developed thyroid cancer at age 14 still looking like a youngster with no arthritis and no other health issue. Another pit-mix of mine died at age 18–no shots, ever. On the other hand, a rescue from a NYC kill-shelter, died within 15 months of adoption at age 3 of total kidney failure. I don’t try to convince anyone of anything they don’t want to know, so I just say I wish your pet good health and let it go.

        • ciaparker2

          I LOVE Marty Goldstein’s book The Nature of Animal Healing, and have referred to it for advice dozens of times for both our cats and dog. Also Dr. Pitcairn’s book, and Don Hamilton’s book on homeopathic care for dogs and cats. And Anitra Frazier’s book The Natural Cat. The website catinfo.org by Dr. Lisa Pierson. And Dr. Elizabeth Hodgkins’ book on cats.
          Homeopathic nosodes are available for all pet VPDs. I got them for our puppy from Aleks

          • parkslopedog

            I also have Dr. Pitcairn’s book and know of Jean Dodds, esp. her work on canine hypothyroidism. The problem with nosodes is that the law insists on documentation from vets, so I just don’t license my dogs. Most of my pit-mixes were street dogs, so I’ve no way of knowing their vaccination history, if any. Once with me, they get no shots. My first rescue was a pregnant stray who nursed her 7 pups. I kept one girl and never gave her shots. At about 5, I had her titerchecked, and she had full immunity. She left me at 14 from thyroid cancer but no outward sign of aging or arthritis. Her mother died at 15 of kidney failure, still looking like a young dog. Another street rescue pit died at 17-1/2 (she was running and swimming at 15). My current pit is almost 9, having come to me from a NM kill-shelter 2 yrs ago, so he was shot up with everything; but I’m feeding him a semi-raw diet with lots of supplements; maybe that’ll neutralize some of the toxins. So far he’s zooming around like a maniac (He says, “Who’s a senior?”).

    • parkslopedog

      In the article, studies were mentioned, including JAVMA, and Dr. Robb’s decades of veterinary experience. Pro or con, don’t you think his tailoring the dosage according to size of the animal is good common sense? Why administer the same dosage to a Dachshund and a Great Dane?

      • Elaine Chelak

        Exactly.

  • http://stopk9torture.com Suki49

    Well, it’s good to see Dr. Robb making baby steps toward the truth, but he’s not all the way there. The truth is, ALL vaccines are ALL poison, ALL the time, in ALL doses. There are ways of producing a healthy, disease resistant, immune system. Injecting with known poisons, foreign animal RNA and DNA, heavy metals (all of which damage the body) is NOT IT. Many dogs and cats, puppies and kittens have died from those first “core” shots, so all vaccination is over-vaccination.

    Pat McKay Natural Immunity E-book | Nature’s Way Pets
    https://natureswaypets.com/2014/10/29/httpwww-essentials4all-org

    Feline postvaccinal sarcoma: 20 years later
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3299519

    The Purdue Vaccination Studies and Auto-antibodies – Dogs …
    http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/purdue-vaccination-studies

    Tumor Related to Vaccinations in Dogs | petMD
    http://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/cancer/c_dg_vaccine_sarcoma

    VACCINATIONS, CANCER & AUTOIMMUNE DISEASE, by Stephen … http://www.thedogplace.org/VACCINES/Vet-On-Vaccines_Blake-1011.asp
    “Vaccines are responsible for autoimmune, cancer, Type I-IV reactions, allergies, asthma, atopy anaphylaxis, eczema, organ failure, neurological, behavioral disease and death.”.
    Vaccine Induced Disease & Compromised Immune Systems
    https://thewholedog.com/vaccine-induced-disease-compromised-immune

    Vaccination And Allergies – 2017 Home Page – Dogs …
    http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/vaccination-allergies-link

    LEPTOMANIA – THE PROBLEM WITH LEPTOSPIROSIS VACCINE, by …
    http://www.thedogplace.org/VACCINES/Leptomania-10052-Jordan.asp

    Parvo Vaccinations – What The Vet Won’t Tell You!
    http://www.parvobuster.com/blog/parvo-news/parvo-vaccinations-what-the-vet...

    • zakcat

      nonsense. You aren’t old enough to have had friends get polio. I agree that there are too many vaccines given at once, but the basic old time vacs are fine. Kids mostly get Hep B from daycare centers that don’t practice good hygiene. So, fix that.

      • AutismDadd

        There is no connection between polio and the over vaccination of pets.

      • sabelmouse

        how do you know somebody’s age?
        and how is knowing somebody who got polio giving you an understanding of why?
        i am certainly old enough not to be scared of measles, are you?
        or are you one of them pro vaxxers who had just everybody around them die.

        • Mike Stevens

          “how is knowing somebody who got polio giving you an understanding of why?”

          …How is knowing someone with autism giving you an understanding of why?

          • AutismDadd

            Have a point at all Mike?

      • ciaparker2

        Kids very rarely get hep-B, which is transmitted like AIDS, by blood and contaminated body fluids (unsafe sex). You’re thinking about hep-A, which is transmitted by poor hygiene, but in the US nearly always in the Western states only.
        All vaccines are dangerous. I agree that the polio vaccine(s) was/were effective, and prevented a devastating disease, but occasionally they disabled or killed. I would say parents should consider not giving it unless/until polio came back here. The tetanus series after age two is the only one I think is a good idea now (if the parents want it), Hib series after four months old only for babies in daycare and not breastfed, and unnecessary after 18 months old, and diphtheria only if it comes back here. But at this time the T is not offered separately in the US, only as DTaP (which no one of any age should get) or the DT (which is the one I recommend careful consideration of).

        • Mike Stevens

          “Kids very rarely get hep-B”

          Correct, thanks to the infant universal Hep B vaccination programme.

          Of course, prior to vaccination between 12,000 and 24,000 children under the age of 10 used to catch Hep B every year.
          But you already know that… You just like lying about it.

          • ciaparker2

            No. It was always very rare for children in western countries to get hep-B. It is you who just like lying about it, to sell the vaccine, as it is your job to do.

          • Mike Stevens

            Cia, haven’t you got tired of lying about Hepatitis yet?

          • ciaparker2

            Estimated. You agree that nearly all of those who get acute hep-B recover from it naturally. And you agree that in chronic cases, most never develop symptoms of it. In a minority of cases, it can progress to liver failure, liver cancer, and death. Usually in alcoholics and drug addicts, who have compromised their livers with their addictions. I believe we can agree on that.

            So what you need to give now is statistics on how many before the vaccine died of either acute or chronic hep-B and how many do now. I gave a source which says that in 2014, 1800 died of chronic hep-B. Another source which I gave a month ago said that three or four hundred a year die from acute hep-B. The vast majority of those people dying of it in 2014 would never have been offered or gotten the vaccine. Chronic hep-B rarely causes death before middle age. So 1800 dying of chronic hep-B is going to be about the same figure before and after the vaccine.

            Homeopathy offers effective treatment for hep-B. It would be better to treat hep-B with it rather than brain-damage and kill so many children with the vaccine. Like my daughter. Every parent needs to read Judy Converse’s When Your Doctor is Wrong: The Hep-B Vaccine and Autism, about her infant’s encephalitic reaction to the vaccine, given, as to mine, without permission. And Mike Belkin’s testimony as to his infant daughter’s being killed by the vaccine. And the congressional testimony at the safety hearing in May 1999, including school nurse Patti White’s testimony as to the vaccine’s being responsible for the huge increase of autism in Missouri kindergartners from 1996 on, five years after the vaccine program for newborns began in 1991.

            Every parent must decide whether they want to run a fairly high risk of severely damaging his or her infant’s brain with the vaccine or run the small risk of his infant’s growing up to become a drug addict or alcoholic who gets and dies (two quite different events) of hep-B. You’re just scaremongering saying that 24,000 got it every year before the vaccine. Again, since it is usually asymptomatic, the important point is how many eventually died of it. And why is it that 95% of those with chronic hep-B came from high prevalence countries, like those in Africa or southern Asia?

          • Mike Stevens

            This forum is an aknowledged Russian “fake news” outlet, and the topic is pet vaccination, not Hep B in humans.

            “Estimated”

            Well, the National Hep B incidence in children has been calculated by making a projection based upon accurate random testing among representative groups of the US population.
            If you wish to dismiss any results as being wrong, because you regard this as an “estimate”, then you will also have to regard all estimates of things like the prevalence of autism in the US as being “wrong”.

            “You agree…”

            No Cia, I agree with virtually nothing you say. We are talking about infants and children with Hep B – and between 50% and 90% of these will become chronic carriers, and will not “recover naturally”.
            50% of them will get chronic liver disease, and 25% will die from liver failure, CLD and hepatocellular carcinoma.

            “Homeopathy offers effective treatment for hep-B.”

            …A claim which shows how abysmal your medical knowledge is and how deluded you are.

            “My daughter’s life was destroyed by this vile vaccine”

            Your daughter has autism.
            According to what you have already told us, she suffers from a hereditary defect in brain synapse function (a Neurexin-1 gene defect) which by itself is known to be a significant cause of autism.
            She also, according to what you have told us, suffered peripartum hypoxia (oxygen starvation to the brain) because of a true knot in the umbilical cord which necessitated emergency C-section, and she had low Apgar scores at 1 and 5 minutes after birth, indicative of brain oxygen deprivation.

            Blaming vaccines for your daughter’s neurological problems is merely your way of avoiding the truth about what happened, but I do understand that denial on your part will ease the burfen of guilt you experience.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/e7f326d8ed32f211ecc3e6608010dd9293a00906a4bca4fc181cb97f5200653a.jpg

          • ciaparker2

            I have provided official sources which state that autism and the other adverse outcomes only occur after a trigger initiates the reaction in susceptible individuals. That’s why the rate of autism has gone from three In 10,000 in 1987 to one in 36 American kids now. If there is no vaccine trigger, then autism is not set off by the excessive inflammatory reaction to the vaccine(s). At NO point in the last four years have you provided any source which explains how either her genetic difference (and everyone who reacts to vaccines has a genetic difference of some kind causing them to react to vaccines when most do not have such severe reactions) or her knot in the umbilical cord, which the pediatrician at the time said would cause no damage, would cause her to start screaming constantly and inconsolably for four days and nights starting nearly four days after she was given the hep-B vaccine at midnight the day she was born, without permission, especially vulnerable because of her difficult birth, and even more prone to vaccine reactions. It WAS a classic syndrome of vaccine encephalitis, which is the MAJOR cause of autism. NOR have you ever given any explanation for her having started to say two words by 18 months, delayed but progressing, and having both of them erased as soon as she got the DTaP booster at that time. She didn’t say another word for a year and a half, but was diagnosed with autism two months later. PLEASE provide a source giving explanations and precedents for her differences causing such delayed reactions and only after the obvious trigger of vaccines.
            ALL sources, CDC and all others, state that hep-B is NOT transmitted casually. The Australia study which I have cited numerous times, showed that it is NOT transmitted among schoolchildren. YOUR study, was it an Oxford study?, showed that nearly ALL the children who had hep-B from living in the household of someone with hep-B had RECOVERED from it by the end of the study, as nearly all do. YOU say that despite all this evidence, that it IS transmitted casually, resulting in acute hep-B in less than one in 100,000 children one to ten (before the vaccine), and chronic hep-B, with no symptoms, in an estimated small percentage of all other children. And yet I provided an official source which said that 95% of those with chronic hep-B were born in countries with moderate to high endemic hep-B.
            And I provided an official source which stated that about 1800 a year died from chronic hep-B. Another source stated that about three to four hundred a year died of acute hep-B. Most of these deaths occurred in those born before the routine vaccination with hep-B vaccine began. So the question is STILL: Is it worth it to disable millions of children for life with the vaccine in order to prevent the death forty years from thence of a relatively small number of people who will grow up to be alcoholics and/or drug addicts and get and die of hep-B? Every parent should read the information in the references I gave yesterday to decide if they want to take the high risk of ruining their child’s life on a remote possibility. Until Gardasil overtook it several years ago, there had been more reports of disabling reactions or death caused by the hep-B vaccine than from all the other vaccines put together, and that’s saying a lot. Now Gardasil for the remote possibility of cervical cancer in the distant future has taken its place.
            I only corrected the misunderstanding of a commenter. Even you will concede that hep-B is not caused by faulty hygiene. Your Oxford study found that it was NOT transmitted by sharing drinking glasses, tableware, or sleeping in the same bed, but, as always, only through breaks in the skin or the mucus membranes having contaminated blood or body fluids placed on them.
            Sure, I can talk about pet vaccines. Can you? Pet vaccines are very dangerous, as are they all. Recombinant Merial Purevax vaccines for dogs are believed to be much safer than live virus vaccines or adjuvanted ones. The vaccines have killed millions of pets with cancer, and often cause crippling autoimmune disease of many sorts, as they do in humans, from the confused reaction of the immune system to them. Vets are advised to give each vaccine in an assigned limb, as far away from the body as possible, to make amputation easier when the vaccine causes an injection-site sarcoma, nearly invariably fatal. Pet owners should not get or permit any vaccine before nine weeks: one dose at nine weeks, a second at sixteen weeks, after the maternal antibodies have certainly faded. Only one vaccine at a time, except for the trivalent cat vaccine, which may or may not be relatively safe to give in combination. So for a kitten, feline distemper, calicivirus, and rhinotracheitis (three-in-one), the first at nine weeks, the second at sixteen, and that’s it for life. Then a Merial unadjuvanted rabies vaccine (in the US) at six months old, a booster one year later, and then one every three or four years for a cat that goes outdoors, not necessary for one that doesn’t. The feline leukemia vaccine is very dangerous, even the Purevax brand: better to keep the kitten indoors until at least eight months old. And/or give the homeopathic nosode. Our older cat we took in as a stray, I never got him the leukemia vaccine, but when we got a rescue kitten last summer, I had him tested for leukemia, and he was negative. He probably got permanent immunity from fending for himself outdoors for at least a month (according to a neighbor who had been seeing him around), maybe far longer. For a puppy, canine distemper at nine weeks, then parvovirus (Merial Purevax) at eleven weeks, then both again at sixteen and eighteen weeks. Parvo is the only real danger these days, but it’s not very effective when given first with distemper second. And that’s it for life for those diseases. Canine hepatitis has not occurred in the US in decades, and is unnecessary. Purevax rabies at six months, booster in one year, then every three years until ten years old, when no pet should get any further vaccines as they enter old age.

          • Mike Stevens

            Estimates, estimates….
            …I thought you despised those.

          • ciaparker2

            I agree that infants born to hep-B positive mothers should get the vaccine, dangerous though it is. Beyond that, nothing you say is true. I put up an official reference which said that 95% of chronic hep-B carriers had been born in a country where it is endemic. So only five percent of them got it somehow in the US. While children under five are the most likely to become chronic carriers, they are not the only ones who can. And it is, again, very rare for a young child to be exposed to hep-B to start with. Your outrageously exaggerated figures are completely at variance with the official sources I cite below, showing that only around 250 Americans a year die from acute hep-B. Around 3,000 die a year with their chronic hep-B being a contributing factor. Most people who die of hep-B do so in their fifties or later, or before the hep-B began to be routinely given to children. That makes these figures applicable to a vaccine-free population: in other words, you cannot say that the massive vaccination of nearly all children since 1991 has contributed to lowering mortality: it was already low to begin with.
            https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/hepb.html

            “While most acute HBV infections in adults result in complete
            recovery, fulminant hepatitis occurs in about 1% to 2% of acutely infected persons. About 200 to 300 Americans die of fulminant disease each year (case-fatality rate 63% to 93%).”

            https://www.hepmag.com/basics/hepatitis-b-basics/hepatitis-b-progression

            “In the United States, approximately 2,000 to 4,000 people die every year from chronic hepatitis B–related causes.”

            “According to Harrison’s Principles of Internal Medicine (1994): in cases of acute hepatitis B most patients do not require hospital care; 95 percent of patients have a favorable course and recover completely; case-fatality ratio is “very low (approximately 0.1 percent).” (1/10th of 1% or 1 out of 1,000); and Those (95%) who recover completely from hepatitis B infection acquire life-long immunity (this is a good thing).

            According to Robbins Pathological Basis of Disease (a medical textbook published in 1994), of those who do not recover completely, fewer than 5 percent become chronic carriers of the virus
            with just one quarter of these in danger of developing life threatening liver disease later in life.

            Translation: Of the 5% of people who do not recover completely from hepatitis B infection, 5% will become chronic carriers and ¼ of them will eventually die from Hep B related liver disease.

            What does this mean? It depends on which statistics you look at. Let’s take the worst-case scenario and go with the “200,000 new cases yearly” cited in the 1999 video from ABC’s 20/20 show.

            200,000 x .95 = 190,000 will recover completely (95% will recover completely)

            Of the 5% of people who do not recover completely from hepatitis B infection, 5% will become chronic carriers and ¼ of them will eventually die from Hep B related liver disease.

            10,000 will not recover completely

            10,000 x .05 = 500 will become chronic carriers

            500 x .25 = 125 will die in later life due to liver disease”

            http://vaxtruth.org/2012/01/should-infants-be-vaccinated-against-hepatitis-b-how-much-aluminum-is-safe-for-infants/

          • Mike Stevens

            What is laughable is that you think the antivaccine propaganda organ ironically known as “Vaxtruth” is an “official source”. How hilarious!

            Acute Hep B has a relatively low mortality. Chronic Hep B… not so much.

            Even taking your own distorted interpretation where you deliberately underestimate the number of Hep B deaths each year as being only 3000, it will be clear to any reasonable and rational person that someone like you who advocates against vaccination which would prevent all these deaths must be rather soft in the head.

          • ciaparker2

            No, what is laughable is that you think you can dismiss the documented facts cited at Vaxtruth as lies just because Marcella is a vaccine critic, as am I. I also cited a CDC source, I notice that you didn’t try to shoot that one down. Hepmag is also not an anti-vax source, yet it reports that only two to four thousand a year die from causes of which chronic hep-B is one of them. And most of those dying of it now are from the pre-vaccine generation, so this is as bad as it gets. Not that bad, especially considering the millions of those severely damaged or killed by the vaccine. Do you not notice the vast disparity in your wild, fear-mongering figures and the fact-based ones? Are you just hoping that others don’t notice if you bluster aggressively enough? The honest person concerned about hep-B will read Judy Converse’s When Your Doctor is Wrong: The Hepatitis-B Vaccine and Autism, and learn about how devastating the vaccine has been to combat a disease which is rare in developed countries, and, when it occurs, is usually only serious in those who are also alcoholics or drug addicts.

          • Mike Stevens

            No, what is strange is that you dismiss so casually the 2,000-4,000 deaths each year from chronic hepatitis B (and also dismiss the 300 or so dying from fulminant acute Hep B).
            Even using your own numbers this is a massive and entirely preventable disease burden.

            Vaccines would prevent all of these deaths, Cia.
            And they would also prevent the huge burden of liver disease/cirrhosis that also afflict those with Hep B but who do not die from it.

            On the other side of the coin, there are virtually no deaths from the vaccine. If there are, you’d be able to cite scientific sources demonstrating that, but you can’t, because they don’t exist.

            Put up or shut up, I say. Take your warped disease advocacy elsewhere… maybe to some blighted tropical poorly resourced country, and tell mothers there how blessed they are when their kids die from measles, meningitis, hepatitis and pneumonia.

            It is also strange how your own citation tells you the risk factors that contribute to more severe liver disease in Hep B, yet you persistently imagine that “drug addiction” is one of these.
            https://www.hepmag.com/basics/hepatitis-b-basics/hepatitis-b-progression

          • ciaparker2

            My own citation says that the factors contributing to severe liver disease in hep-B are:

            Most adults who are infected with hepatitis B clear the virus during the acute phase of the infection. People who have impaired immune responses have a higher risk of not clearing hep B on their own and are more likely to develop chronic HBV infection. Examples are:

            People living with HIV

            Organ transplant recipients

            Those undergoing chemotherapy

            People on dialysis for kidney problems

            Anyone on steroid therapy to suppress the immune system.

            We both recognize that hep-B is spread by infected blood of one person infecting someone else, entering through an open wound or mucus membrane. Specifically, drug addicts who use hypodermic needles to shoot up and share these needles (with their infected blood on them) with someone else are likely to infect someone else this way.
            And we both recognize that hep-B in infants and children up to five is particularly dangerous. It can be transmitted to a newborn in utero and during the birth process. It has been routine to test pregnant women for hep-B for over thirty years. These women should seriously consider giving their newborn the vaccine, which may or may not protect it, since the child has been exposed to the mother’s infected blood for many months already. After birth, it would be extremely rare for a child to contract it. It is not transmitted casually. A toothbrush or razor with infected blood on them might transmit it, but how many infected or uninfected parents share their toothbrushes or razor blades with a child?
            If you look at VAERS reports, you will immediately find large numbers of reports of death or disability caused by the hep-B vaccine. Until Gardasil overtook it some years ago, there were more adverse event reports made for reactions caused by the hep-B vaccine than for all the others combined, including DPT/DTaP and MMR, and that’s saying a lot. Every interested parent who googles it will find trainloads of documented evidence regarding severe reactions caused by the HBV vaccine.
            Parents everywhere are rightfully wary of vaccine damage. It is a choice which must be researched carefully by every parent. Parents in blighted tropical countries in many cases would accept a child’s death more easily than a child requiring extensive care for the rest of his life. I would not take it upon myself to make this decision for them, and you should not either. It is not you who will be caring for the vaccine-damaged for the rest of their lives.

          • ciaparker2

            There have been MANY deaths caused by the vaccine, but you would ALWAYS just say No, it didn’t, even if the vaccinee drops dead two seconds after being injected.
            That’s right. In a country the size of the US, 250 dying of acute hep-b every year and 3,000 dying with chronic hep-b which may have been a factor in their death is a small number. And such deaths are nearly ALWAYS in people born in hep-B endemic countries or in alcoholics or drug addicts. Every parent must know how UNLIKELY it is that her baby will one day die of hep-B, then read accounts of MANY infants dying from the vaccine or reacting with autism or other serious disabilities, and then make the choice. Yeah, that’s right, a ludicrous choice when viewed accurately. Of course you will fight with might and main to keep people from viewing it accurately.
            And African parents must know that in the 90% of children even in Africa who recover when they get measles, there is a resulting ONE-FIFTH of the mortality compared to those who did NOT get measles, because it is so good for the developing immune system to undergo the training offered by a natural case of measles. And then they may choose as they like. Somali father Khalef said he’d rather have a child of his die of measles (instead all but the last one got it and recovered: the last one got the MMR and reacted to it with autism, as so many have), than be robbed of his human heritage by being inflicted with autism.

          • Mike Stevens

            This is the mathematical blooper in your “vaxtruth” calculation, Cia…
            “Of the 5% of people who do not recover completely from hepatitis B infection, 5% will become chronic carriers”

            I am afraid that it should read as follows:
            “Of the 5% of people who do not recover completely from hepatitis B infection, all of them will become chronic carriers>”

            So the calculation goes:
            200,000 cases per year.
            5% become chronic carriers (10,000)
            ¼ of them will eventually die from Hep B related liver disease (2,500)

            But then, you don’t care that 2,500 a year would die from chronic liver disease that is preventable through vaccination, do you?
            You already told us you didn’t care, you callous, disease-mongering troll.

          • ciaparker2

            That’s 2,500 a year dying with chronic hep-B being one of several factors contributing to their death. Such death does not usually occur until middle age, and usually occurs as the ultimate result of alcoholism, drug addiction, and/or prostitution.
            So the choice is whether to cause autism and many other severe conditions in infants by giving them the hep-B vaccine and to vaccinate all infants, as has been done since 1991 in the US (since the beginning of the vast increase in autism etc.), in order to save a very small percentage of them from getting and eventually dying of hep-B, or to not give it and let the child make the decision for himself at the time he is getting involved as an adult with drugs, alcohol, and unsafe sex. Every parent should be aware of what the stakes are before making this choice. Very few of them would choose the vaccine. Even if they were carriers of hep-B, most would prefer to seek homeopathic treatment for their disease and be very careful not to allow anyone to come into contact with their infected blood and body fluids.
            I do not care to insult you. What you are is fully evident to every reader.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Such death does not usually occur until middle age, and usually occurs as the ultimate result of alcoholism, drug addiction, and/or prostitution.”

            Cia, the only factor out of these contributing to worsening of chronic Hep B is advanced alcoholism (as your very own citation explained to you).

            It might be that someone acquires Hep B through sex or drug use, but they are not factors for progression of disease.

            Is that really so hard to understand? I bet even your daughter could grasp that concept; why can’t you?

            “most would prefer to seek homeopathic treatment for their disease..”
            What? You did a survey amongst all the chronic Hep B sufferers, did you, and asked them?
            What utter garbage you spout, Cia.
            There is no verifiably effective homeopathic treatment for chronic Hep B, and I very much doubt anyone with cirrhosis or liver failure is going to try some magic water sprinkled with fairy dust.

          • ciaparker2

            I disagree. Someone who practices unsafe sex or drug or alcohol abuse is usually addicted and will spend the rest of their lives seeking their highs, meaning that every time they drink or shoot up, is another nail in their coffin, further damage to their liver.
            Homeopathy can be used in conjunction with allopathic treatment, such as it is. I really don’t care what those with chronic hep-B do. They have the option of seeking effective treatment through homeopathy, and can take it or leave it. I’m more concerned with the children presently being disabled or killed by the vaccine.

          • Mike Stevens

            “I disagree. Someone who practices unsafe sex [or drug or alcohol abuse] is
            usually addicted and will spend the rest of their lives seeking their
            highs”

            Is that what you did Cia?
            You have a child, so you obviously practiced “unsafe sex”. Tut tut. Now you are addicted and you have spent the rest of your life seeking a “high” from it?

          • ciaparker2

            But the important fact is that only two to three hundred a year died before the vaccine and continue to die now (in adults born before the routine use of the vaccine) of acute hep-B, and 2,500 as a result of chronic hep-B. Not very many. Now read When Your Doctor is Wrong: The Hepatitis-B Vaccine and Autism, and learn how devastating the vaccine has been to millions of children.

          • Mike Stevens

            Cia, I’d like you to provide EVIDENCE that Hep B vaccine kills even a tiny handful of people a year, never mind more than the disease kills (3000-4000).
            Can you do that?
            Please don’t cite some quack or some book that some antivaccine activist wrote. That isn’t scientific evidence, that is just propaganda.

          • ciaparker2

            Au contraire. You’re saying that when the vaccine kills or causes autism after vaccine encephalitis in a baby given the vaccine, that that is no evidence at all of what happened unless Merck agrees that its vaccine did it.

          • Mike Stevens

            So… No evidence Hep B vaccine is killing babies/infants.
            Thanks for confirming that.

            Again, to make it crystal clear, I am saying Hep B vaccine does not cause neonatal encephalitis.

            However you say that is causes encephalitis in every baby it is given to. That is utterly ridiculous. If it were true, then you’d be able to CITE SOME SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE FOR YOUR CLAIM.
            You can’t. I’ve asked dozens of times, and you just mumble, confabulate and try and discombobulate people.

          • ciaparker2

            What a liar you are. Three newborns all given the hep-B vaccine in Vietnam, all three die of it, and the government is alarmed enough to take it off the market. But you say THAT’S not evidence of anything.

          • Mike Stevens

            “What a liar you are.”
            I never lie, Cia. In contrast, you are a proven pathological liar, and a fantasist.

            I asked you for scientific evidence Hep B vaccine causes “millions” of deaths or serious illnesses, and all you can do is throw some anecdotes at me. Don’t you understand the question, or the level of evidence required to demonstrate a causal association? Clearly not.

            “Three newborns all given the hep-B vaccine in Vietnam, all three die of it, and the government is alarmed enough to take it off the market. But you say THAT’S not evidence of anything.”
            Well, it’s not scientific evidence of anything, nor is it proof the Hep B vaccine killed the 3 children.

            In fact the truth is quite different to your own version of events. It seems that after 3 deaths the provincial Dept of Health suspended vaccination in case the vaccine lots may have been responsible. That’s just sensible precautions – what any responible health agency would do until investigations ruled vaccine in or out as a cause.
            And guess what? A police investigation found that the nurse had mistakenly injected the babies with something else (ie Not the Hep B vaccine). She tried to cover up the error by burying the “vaccine” vials, and was arrested, and 2 other hospital officials were suspended.
            https://tuoitrenews.vn/society/18774/accidental-injections-the-cause-of-babies-death-last-year-police

            And what were the consequences of this scare?
            Well, vaccination rates dropped as the media and antivaccine agitators (like you I guess) spread panic about the Hepatitis B vaccine.
            A study was done into the adverse effects of the drop in vaccination, and it concluded that there would be “an excess of 90,137 chronic infections and 17,456 future deaths estimated to occur in the 2013 birth cohort due to the drop in vaccination coverage
            https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X15007409

            Got that Cia?
            …A nurse botches a vaccination and kills 3 babies, people blame the vaccine, and the resultant adverse publicity means that 90,000 vietnamese kids will suffer the effects of chronic Hep B (cirrhosis, liver failure and cancer) and over 17,000 will die from Hep B that might have been prevented by vaccination.

            Don’t tell me – you are “laughing” again, right? That’s just the sort of outcome you antivaxers delight in, isn’t it? You “couldn’t care less”, and why should you, after all they are only non-white babies from some far-away “sh1t hole” country, right?

          • 655321

            Mike, remember when you posted this gem using your “Brian” profile?
            “tons of further studies were done, involving millions of children all
            over the world, and they all show that the unvaccinated develop autism
            at the same rate as the vaccinated”….still waiting for you to cite some of these of “tons” of studies Mikey/bri/acleron.

          • ciaparker2

            How can you rule out vaccines as a cause? Any vaccine can always cause a severe reaction when the immune system reacts to it with more inflammation than it was hoped that it would do. Just one of those wild cards. A lot of people, like everyone in my family, has genes which predispose us to unusually vigorous reactions to the invasion of a vaccine. The immune system is just trying to act appropriately, unaware that the vaccine is just a ruse. What method do you use to determine in any individual case that there had been NO hyperinflammatory reaction which cause encephalitis, autism, seizure disorders, motor disorders, or death?

            Please provide your proof that the nurse was illiterate and could not read the Hep-B part which presumably would have been on the vials. Please provide the reasons for which anesthesia and “toxins” had been packaged to look like a hep-B vaccine. Are there video surveillance tapes proving that the nurse used the wrong vial? You call this cockamamie story proof?

            And then we have:

            “In nearly 20% of VAERS reports, the first of eight listed side effects suggests central nervous system involvement.
            Examining the first listed effects shows about 4,600 involving such symptoms as prolonged screaming, agitation, apnea, ataxia, visual disturbances, convulsions, tremors, twitches, an abnormal cry, hypotonia, hypertonia, abnormal sensations, stupor, somnolence, neck rigidity, paralysis, confusion, and oculogyric crisis. The last is a striking feature of post-encephalitic Parkinson’s disease, or it may occur as a dystonic reaction to certain drugs such as phenothiazines.”
            So in 20% of adverse event reports on the hep-B vaccine, we have symptoms of vaccine encephalitis. And, of course, since parents are not told at any point the symptoms of vaccine encephalitis, VAERS officials have stated that only one to ten percent of actual reactions are reported, meaning that the first clue most parents have that their child suffered an encephalitic reaction to the vaccine is when he misses his milestones and acts in strange ways which are eventually diagnosed as autism. Caused by the hep-B vaccine.

          • Mike Stevens

            Cia, it’s not me claiming the nurse gave a different vial rather than Hep B vaccine – it is the official police investigation.

            But never mind, let’s assume for the sake of your argument that 3 babies were killed by Hep B vaccine.
            Because of the adverse publicity and senseless panic created by antivaxers, they estimated that 90,000 kids would develop illness from chronic Hep B, and 17,000 would die from it (because they were not vaccinated).

            Can you answer a simple question for once in your life…
            Which is the bigger number: 3 or 17,000?

            “And then we have: In nearly 20% of VAERS reports…”

            When did VAERS reports become scentific evidence of causality, Cia?
            Don’t you know that VAERS is a passive reporting system, and that only 3% of reports are found on investigation to be definitely caused by the vaccine, and the majority are not even possibly caused by the vaccine?

            “…we have symptoms of vaccine encephalitis

            Nope, we have symptoms that for some bizarre reason you have decided without any evidence whatsoever are diagnostic of encephalitis, things like “crying after vaccination”.

            Here are the signs and diagnostic criteria for encephalitis, Cia. I have shown them to you numerous times before.
            Don’t you ever get tired of lying about vaccines?

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/1d0994c7c8d9c512b7cf5dbe245a4fb8bc3c19218aa5a25ed5ec08bcbd37790b.jpg

          • Peter Harris

            “I never lie”

            Ha ha ha…

            Says the wanker with multiple disqus accounts.

          • ciaparker2

            I have only one Disqus account. I’m blocking a lying cutthroat like you.

          • Peter Harris

            Really?
            And you are, with a new profile?

          • Ron Roy

            Evidence? You mean like the evidence that doctors never report? The medical profession is beyond corrupt.

          • Mike Stevens

            Yet more misdirection and anecdotal garbage from the resident antivaccine nutjob:

            “A French court ordered compensation to two individuals whose MS was causally related to the administration of a Hep B vaccine. Further studies in France have also indicated that both MS and SLE (Systemic Lupus Erythematosis) can both be linked with this vaccine.”

            Except for the inconvenient fact that numerous studies have exonerated Hep B vaccine from any causal role in Multiple Sclerosis, Cia. Even the study which led to the scare in France 20 years ago failed to show a statistically significant association.

            Let’s see what a review on the dozens of studies on the matter has concluded, shall we?
            http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/committee/topics/hepatitisb/multiple_sclerosis/Jun_2002/en/

            “Hepatitis B vaccine has been used extensively in France in recent years, with more than 20 million persons being vaccinated. Several case reports have raised concerns that hepatitis B immunization may be linked to new cases or relapses of multiple sclerosis (MS). In response to public and professional concern, the French Ministry of Health on 1 October 1998 temporarily suspended the school-based adolescent hepatitis B vaccine programme. France maintained the recommendations for universal infant immunization and administration of the vaccine to adults at special risk, and reiterated their support for adolescent vaccination. This decision was misunderstood and interpreted as a ban on hepatitis B immunization, generating widespread concern in other countries.

            Three possible theories explain the link between MS and hepatitis B vaccine: 1) coincidence, due to the large number of hepatitis B vaccine doses administered, many to individuals in the age groups in which MS first occurs; 2) “triggering”, an increased risk of demyelination following hepatitis B vaccine that would act as a “trigger” in individuals predisposed to develop MS or other central nervous system demyelinating disease; and 3) a true causal association between hepatitis B vaccination and MS or other demyelinating disease.

            By 2001, more than 700 cases of central demyelinating diseases with a close match to the natural epidemiological distribution of MS had been reported to the French authorities, the majority in adult females. The time delay between the last dose of vaccine and the onset of neurological symptoms was from 1 day to 5 years (median: 60 days). No cases were reported among children < 25 months, despite vaccination of 1.8 million babies. Overall, 9 epidemiological studies have been carried out to estimate the risk (if any) of an association between vaccination with hepatitis B vaccine and a first attack or relapse of MS. None of the initial studies, despite a slightly elevated odds ratio, showed a statistically significantly increase in risk; the most recent studies do not indicate any excess risk. Analysis of data from spontaneous reports and epidemiological studies does not support a causal relationship between MS and hepatitis B vaccine. The most likely explanation is a coincidental association.

            The conclusions of a recent report of the United States Institute of Medicine on an association between hepatitis B vaccine and demyelinating neurological disorders also did not support a causal relationship between hepatitis B vaccine administered to adults and MS or relapse of MS. GACVS has concluded that there is no reason to suggest a change in the recommendations for universal infant and adolescent immunization coverage with hepatitis B vaccine.”

          • Mike Stevens

            VAERS… LOL. Are you channelling Geier now?

            A passive reporting system. How many of the deaths were linked to Hep B vaccine only, and not contemporaneous with other vaccines?
            How many were confirmed as being due to Hep B vaccine?
            Where are these deaths reported in the scientific literature?
            You do know only 3% of VAERS reports found a definite causal link to the putative vaccine when investigated, I hope?

          • 655321

            spoken like true sales rep….

          • http://www.illuminati-r-us.com/ Reality022

            Anti-vaccine death cult leaders showing themselves to be completely innumerate.
            Why am I not surprised?
            So much for the scientific/technical credibility of Vaxtruth.org and not-a-scientist Marcella Piper-Terry. One wonders if she can balance her checkbook by herself.
            .
            Merely going to the Pinkbook would have pointed out her 3rd grade mistake:
            https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/hepb.html#complications
            Chronic HBV Infection

            By adulthood, the risk of acquiring chronic HBV infection is approximately 5%.

            Chronic active hepatitis develops in more than 25% of carriers and often results in cirrhosis. An estimated 3,000 to 4,000 persons die of hepatitis B-related cirrhosis each year in the United States.

            An estimated 1,000 to 1,500 persons die each year in the United States of hepatitis B-related liver cancer.”

            .
            Lessee – That’s 4,000-5,500 persons dying each year in the USA from chronic HBV infection and yet der cheniuses at Vaxtroof came up with 125 and, in their arrogant ignorance, decided that was the correct number.
            Can you say Dunning-Kruger?
            I knew you could.

          • Mike Stevens

            Dunning Kruger!!!!
            😉

          • Peter Harris

            Your mirror seems to be working fine.

          • Mike Stevens

            “According to Robbins Pathological Basis of Disease “

            Here is the Robbins extract, btw.
            Just to show you that you and “Vaxtruth” have so badly mangled the natural history outcomes of Hep B that they have been rendered almost unrecognisable.
            But then none of you know any medicine, so I am not surprised.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c6646c9f88d83b59212c379aa4f87978af8b52a7f072015eb78bb9804835c413.jpg

          • http://www.illuminati-r-us.com/ Reality022

            Marcella Piper-Terry and Vaxtroof drools strikes again!
            .
            It must be discouraging to the anti-vaccine cultists that all their luminaries are shown to be complete ignoramuses when they step outside mere fanatical cult polemics. Facts seem to elude them.
            .

          • 655321

            spoken like a used car salesman, I mean pharmaceutical sales rep.

        • FallsAngel

          No Hep B is not “transmitted like AIDS”. Hep B is far more contagious than AIDS, and about 30% of cases don’t know how they got it, this with careful disease investigation. Living with someone with Hep B is a risk factor, as it is not with AIDS.

          Please knock of this practicing medicine without a license, cia. You are incompentent to recommend or disrecommend any vaccine for any reason and you, not vaccines, are dangerous.

          If polio came back here, many would be paralyzed before they could be fully immunized. Tetanus spores live in dirt, babies crawl around in dirt. Hib should be given ASAP. Hib disease can KILL. Many kids who get Hib meningitis do not have any risk factors, and the highest incidence is in kids 6-18 months. It’s not real helpful to give the vaccine after 18 months.

          Lurkers, this woman is a lying liar.

        • ciaparker2

          Lucinda,
          I saw your comment in my inbox, but it’s not here. You said children do get hep-C. Did you mean B, since that’s what we’re talking about here? They can get it if they have a parent with hep-B and they get his blood on an open wound on their body or on a mucus membrane. If they’re older than five, they usually make a complete recovery within weeks or months. If they’re younger than five, they have a higher chance of developing a chronic case. I said it was very rare, not impossible. Most parents do not have hep-B, and if they did, most of them would be careful about letting others be exposed to their blood. But you’re right, in rare cases young children might get it from a careless parent, and develop a chronic case of it. Even in these cases, most of them eventually recover and revert to normal status. And yes, those who drink trash their liver through that alone, and the hep-B on top of that might mean their death.

          Thinking about it, my daughter has never been exposed to my blood. I have never in my life rubbed a wound on myself on a cut on her, nor on a mucus membrane. Nor have I ever shared a toothbrush or razor blade with her. Not even once. I think that’s why they say that hep-B is not transmitted through casual contact. If you really tried, you could, but most people wouldn’t.

          But most parents, if they knew how dangerous the hep-b vaccine is, would consider the likelihood of their baby getting hep-B, would realize that it’s close to zero, and refuse the vaccine.

      • Mike Stevens

        Here’s kooky Cia with her “Kids never get Hep B” trope again…

      • Neo

        Kids get Hep B from daycare?!!!
        WHAT!!
        Omg from what, people having sex and shooting up and leaving fluids around!!
        SMFH!
        Please don’t breed, your ignorance is astounding by that comment.
        No wonder Pharma is thriving with idiocy!!

      • ciaparker2

        The old-time vacs were dangerous, just not on the scale of today when so many more are routinely given. Even the polio vaccine killed or disabled a certain number, and the oral Sabin vaccine sometimes caused polio paralysis. The pertussis vaccine was ALWAYS very dangerous, not infrequently causing vaccine encephalitis, seizures, non-stop vomiting and diarrhea, and death, paralysis, or autism. My brother and I both reacted to it at three months old, I with screaming for several days, and he with beating his head on the bars of his crib. We both grew up with Asperger’s syndrome, high-functioning autism. And the smallpox vaccine was very dangerous: just rotten, dangerous pus for over a hundred years, often causing injection-site cancer, gangrene, infection, withered limbs, syphilis, TB, leprosy (from contaminated vaccination instruments), and death. The twentieth-century version continued to be dangerous, while smallpox in the US became so mild after 1897 that it was often mistaken for chickenpox. There were no deaths from smallpox in the last decades of vaccine use, only a lot of gruesome deaths from the vaccine. When I took my baby to the doctor with chickenpox in 2002, Dr. Avery said he’d been glad to see the last of the smallpox vaccine: he’d seen it cause many very severe reactions. The book A Shot in the Dark was written about all the horrible reactions to the DPT vaccine, and it and the 60 Minutes program Vaccine Roulette got the DPT taken off the market in the developed world, replaced by the still-dangerous DTaP vaccine. My baby, already brain-damaged by the hep-b vaccine at birth, given without permission, had started saying two words by 18 months: both words disappeared as soon as she got the DTaP booster at that time, and she was diagnosed with autism two months later.

      • Mike Stevens

        Time for the kooky rant (see below).

      • sabelmouse

        get polio from the vaccine?

  • Misst

    “Vaccines can even make your dog autistic.” Even the article that the author has linked to says vaccines do not cause autism and the the 1998 study that said vaccines cause autism was fraudulent and the doctor who published it was striped of his right to practice medicine in the UK.

    • sabelmouse

      what ”study”?

      • JoeFarmer

        Do you laugh at animals that die from vaccine preventable diseases like you laugh at children?

        • parkslopedog

          Huh? Without taking sides, when did sabelmouse laugh at anyone, much less laugh at children?

          • AutismDadd

            Pharmer is a troll

          • sabelmouse

            for some reason pros pretend to/think laughing at something silly that they say means laughing at the plight of children.
            anything to mess with logic and rational discussion.

          • Mike Stevens

            She went “Lol!” when Joe recounted how a child had died from measles.

          • parkslopedog

            Scrolled through the entire comment section and couldn’t find it. Anyway, this article is about pets. Humans aren’t given repeated vaccinations annually. Thanks for your reply.

          • ciaparker2

            Foolish people get the flu vaccine annually. My father was paralyzed for the last three years of his life by one.

          • parkslopedog

            I’m so sorry that your father suffered at the hands of the AMA and Big Pharma. They know the vaccines are either useless or injurious but only care about profits. Unfortunately, most people refuse to listen to reason, preferring to trust their doctor-gods.

          • parkslopedog

            I’m so sorry that your father suffered at the hands of the AMA and Big Pharma. They know the vaccines are either useless or injurious but only care about profits. Unfortunately, most people refuse to listen to reason, preferring to trust their doctor-gods.

          • AutismDadd

            Tattler Tribune writer Mike The Manual Stevens.

          • Ron Roy

            The measles vaccine has killed a lot more people than the measles itself;: “It was similar with the measles vaccination. They went through Africa,
            South America and elsewhere, and vaccinated sick and starving children…They thought they
            were wiping out measles, but most of those susceptible to measles died from some other
            disease that they developed as a result of being vaccinated. The vaccination reduced their
            immune levels and acted like an infection. Many got septicaemia, gastro-enteritis,
            etcetera, or made their nutritional status worse and they died from malnutrition. So there
            were very few susceptible infants left alive to get measles. It’s one way to get good
            statistics, kill all those that are susceptible, which is what they literally did.”
            –Dr Kalokerinos, M.D. Dr Kalokerinos
            interview——-International Vaccine Newsletter June 1995

          • Mike Stevens

            “The measles vaccine has killed a lot more people than the measles itself”

            Can we have a citation from a scientific publication, Ron, not some antivax vomit spewed out by some crank.

          • Ron Roy

            This is the man you call a crank? https://www.smh.com.au/national/doctor-prevented-infant-mortality-20120316-1vaj6.html Typical of a big corrupt pharmaceutical company representative.

          • AutismDadd

            It must be valid if you react this way.

          • Neo

            Lol…the big word “CITATIONS”
            You know the Pharma studies mean shit right, but if you pay me money, we can provide you with whatever you want is how it works!

          • Bored Now

            Actually that can’t be how it works. We already know how pharmaceutical companies try to bend the rules. There would be absolutely no reason to do that if they could simply make up results independent of the actual tests done.

          • ciaparker2

            Dr. Kalokerinos established that the reason that up to HALF of aboriginal babies vaccinated in the ’60s and ’70s DIED from them was because they were vitamin-C deficient. And so they addressed that problem. If you had been in charge, you would have just ignored the problem and continued killing half the infants. Who cares? The vaccine companies get their take, that’s all that counts, right? And, if you had paid more attention to the wisdom of physicians such as Dr. Kalokerinos, perhaps you might have been more successful in saving the lives of African babies, who could have lived had they been given vitamin C. Who is the crank here, I ask?

          • Mike Stevens

            Kalokernikos?
            …Where did he publish his peer-reviewed research?

            If he didn’t, then his inane witterings do not count as “scientific evidence”, by anyone’s rules.

          • ciaparker2

            He stopped the wholesale slaughter of aboriginal babies by vaccine by his simple observation that they were deficient in vitamin C. How ghoulish to say that unless Merck rubber-stamps your ideas, they are, by definition, worthless, babies’ lives be damned.

          • Mike Stevens

            So… No published evidence then, just his own deluded fantasies.

            Got it.

          • ciaparker2

            Just their own deluded fantasies? What a restricted prison your life is.

            “That was the plight of the Aboriginal people, in particular the impossibly high infant mortality rate he encountered
            in regional NSW. In one Aboriginal community every second Aboriginal infant was dying. Kalokerinos adopted a radical ”counter intuitive” therapy – boosting the immune system – and brought the infant mortality rate there down to zero.
            He embraced preventative medicine, particularly in the beneficial use of vitamin C. Some of Kalokerinos’s theories were controversial, but he had some powerful support. The dual Nobel-prize winner Linus Pauling, in the foreword to
            Kalokerinos’s book Every Second Child, endorsed his views. In 1975, film director Phillip Noyce produced a documentary
            on him and Aboriginal healthcare entitled, God Only knows Why, But it Works. It was claimed that a ”Schindler’s List” could be drawn up, of children he had saved and their offspring…

            “I met an elderly Aboriginal woman who told me that before white men came the Aboriginal children did not die as they did now.” From that moment, he decided to return to Collarenebri to resume full-time medical practice.

            He was surprised to discover that some of the children had symptoms of scurvy. After trying to treat them with antibiotics and vitamin C, he found that the effects of vitamin C therapy were dramatic. He reported on this, encountering scepticism from some within his profession. He believed there was a link between vitamin C deficiency and sudden infant death syndrome. He also found that some children had a disease that affected their taste buds so that food tasted foul, and they were being
            tube-fed. He realised they were suffering a zinc deficiency and came up with a treatment that is now routine.”

            https://www.smh.com.au/national/doctor-prevented-infant-mortality-20120316-1vaj6.html

            “British doctor John Snow couldn’t convince other doctors and scientists that cholera, a deadly disease, was spread when people drank contaminated water until a mother washed her baby’s diaper in a town well in 1854 and touched off an epidemic that killed 616 people.

            Dr. Snow, an obstetrician with an interest in many aspects of medical science, had long believed that water contaminated by
            sewage was the cause of cholera. Cholera is an intestinal disease than can cause death within hours after the first symptoms of vomiting or diarrhea. Snow published an article in 1849 outlining his theory, but doctors and scientists
            thought he was on the wrong track and stuck with the popular belief of the time that cholera was caused by breathing vapors or a “miasma in the atmosphere”.

            http://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/snow/snowcricketarticle.html

            “In those years, millions of Jews died in the Nazi death camps like Auschwitz, but Schindler’s Jews miraculously survived.

            To more than 1200 Jews Oscar Schindler was all that stood between them and death at the hands of the Nazis. A man full of flaws like the rest of us – the unlikeliest of all role models who started by earning millions as a war profiteer and ended by spending his last pfennig and risking his life to save his Jews. An ordinary man who even in the worst of circumstances did
            extraordinary things, matched by no one. He remained true to his Jews, the workers he referred to as my children. In the shadow of Auschwitz he kept the SS out and everyone alive.

            Oscar Schindler and his wife Emilie Schindler were inspiring evidence of courage and human decency during the Holocaust. Emilie was not only a strong woman working alongside her husband but a heroine in her own right. She worked
            indefatigably to save the Schindler-Jews – a story to bear witness to goodness, love and compassion.

            Today there are more than 7,000 descendants of the Schindler-Jews living in US and Europe, many in Israel. Before the Second World War, the Jewish population of Poland was 3.5 million. Today there are between 3,000 and 4,000 left.”

            http://www.oskarschindler.com/

          • Mike Stevens

            Comparing John Snow, the founder of epidemiology who directly saved thousands of lives and indirectly saved millions more, with Archie [I’m a kook] Kalokerinos is tantamount to medical sacriledge.

            Where did Kalokerinos write up his “research” again, Cia?
            I’d love to read it.

            …Oh that’s right, he didn’t. He just decided to never publish his “discoveries”, therby keeping the entire medical profession in the dark about how to save millions of children. What a sefish idiot, sacrificing all those kids on the altar of his egotistical mania.

          • http://www.illuminati-r-us.com/ Reality022

            Shhhh, Mike.
            It wuz sekrit Aluminutty information Archie developed. Teh anti-vaxxers don’t realize Archie was a high level member of the Aluminutty, the Freemasons, and was a crypto-Jesuit priest.
            His data and protocols were only for teh eyes of teh Reptilian Galactic Overlords – whom he served.

          • ciaparker2

            So how is it that the world knows what a heroic act he performed? His book Every Second Child? HIs lectures? His articles?
            Your god is the pharma-medical establishment, with the strictest rules for permitted and forbidden discourse. Every word which is perceived to run counter to the bottom line of pharma commerce is sacrilege. Screw that. Children’s lives and minds are being destroyed by your god and its rites.

          • Mike Stevens

            “So how is it that the world knows what a heroic act he performed?”

            Hmmmm…
            Archie Kalokerinos: 8,000 Google hits
            John Snow: 18 million Google hits.

            ….You were saying?

            “His book? HIs lectures? His articles?”

            Ah yes, book publication for personal gain, and none of it peer reviewed, none of it disseminated to other doctors through the vehicle of submission for scientific publication… What a selfish old crank.
            Actually, maybe he did try, but his work was found sorely wanting…

          • http://www.illuminati-r-us.com/ Reality022

            I see you are endorsing Germ Theory as it applies to some diseases, chia.
            Bravo!
            Considering a not inconsequential fraction of the anti-vaccine cult denies Germ Theory and promotes the terrain theory of infectious diseases this is very brave of you. I’m sure you understand the logic of: If Semmelweis’ idea of doctors hand washing is something you believe was a healthcare breakthrough you must believe there was something to wash off the hands that caused disease; after all, hand washing can hardly change the patient’s “terrain” now can it?
            .
            Please engage your anti-vaccine cult friends and explain to them why they are showing themselves to be confused ignoramuses when they tout Semmelweis while at the same time deny Germ Theory. Those two views are mutually exclusive… Ah, it doesn’t matter. The anti-vax dullards commonly embrace mutually exclusive ideas – often in the same post.
            Nobody ever accused them of being deep thinkers.

          • shay simmons

            Some of Archie’s theories were controversial? You mean his insistence that brain bleeding, broken ribs and whiplash aren’t really signs of child abuse but are caused by vaccines?

            That’s not controversial, parker. That’s vile.

          • http://www.illuminati-r-us.com/ Reality022

            I think it is Jonathan for whom the mention of Archie Kalokerinos prompts a very thorough debunking of Archie the Australian Crackpot.

            In any event, your question about Kalokerinos’ scientific publications pretty much put the nail in the coffin of his “research” career and exposes him as the crackpot her was… I’d expect no answer to your question… As you know, Archie didn’t publish any of his ‘revolutionary research found whilst saving vast numbers of aborigines with vitamin C’.

            (Vitamin C… Why is it always vitamin C?)

          • Mike Stevens

            I’m always astounded how many mavericks there are who “discover” amazing cures that would save the lives of millions of people, but then mysteriously fail to publicise these in a way that would be of benefit to medical science by writing them up in a scientific journal, so that the rest of mankind can benefit from their astounding discoveries.

            Sheer criminal negligence, IMO. They should be convicted and jailed for such an oversight… just think how many millions have died because they never published their brilliant findings?

            The list rolls on…
            Archie Kalokerinos, Paul Thomas, Meyer Eisenstein, etc.
            Utterly shameful. You’d think the antivax crew would be all over them like measles in an unvaxed child, wouldn’t you?
            But no…

          • Ron Roy

            As if any medical journal would publish anything that would harm the profits of their advertisers. Peer-reviewed journals have become a joke.

          • Bored Now

            People have to be pretty gullible to believe Archie Kalokerinos. Not only is it exceptionally unlikely that he observed even a tiny portion of the vaccinations that were done in Africa, South America and the rest of the world — rendering his opinion rather useless. We know from his book that he reached his conclusions about infant mortality in NSW without running a single test and he tends to go on flights of fancy. Such as blaming the spread of AIDS on vaccination. From his presentation at a anti-vaccination meeting

            vaccination schemes in Nigeria were responsible for the spread of HIV/AIDS and was a deliberate policy of genocide;

            Archie is a nutcase.

          • Mike Stevens

            Wow!
            Kalokernikos crankery of the highest order.
            What puzzles me is how his proponents can be so clueless and credulous as to think he is some scientific/medical genius.

          • Bored Now

            No kidding….also who writes an autobiography with a title like Medical Pioneer of the 20th Century

          • Mike Stevens

            Jeez.. ru serious!?

          • Mike Stevens

            CDN$699???
            A used copy?**
            Please, please, please tell me this is a joke.

            **Described as “Gently used”.
            …What for, toilet paper?

          • Bored Now

            Oh that. Used books can have wacky prices. In this case I’m willing to bet the original seller simply didn’t know how to price it and picked something in the $100’s. After that other sellers have software which simply prices based on market value, seller reputation, condition etc…

            There was even a case of a bidding war that happened between two algorithms.

          • shay simmons

            Confirmation bias rides again.

          • shay simmons

            To be fair…so is Ron.

          • AutismDadd

            That LOL was at joe, he’s a clown

          • joe

            Correct, I remember that.

        • AutismDadd

          What about you pharmer? Laugh when you read decisions from the NVICP?

        • Ron Roy

          I’ve had three dogs and none of them were vaccinated and all them were very healthy.

        • Neo

          Oh Joe Pharmer!
          Where is the proof vaccines have prevented any diseases and saved lives….WHERE!!!
          There is none!
          Children and animals are dying from the same illnesses caused from vaccines.

          • JoeFarmer

            Only a stupid shltbag would say that. I guess that makes you a stupid shltbag.

          • Neo

            Hahaha…oh lttle Joe Pharmer, I think all those toxic Gmo’s and toxic vaccines are destroying what’s left of your little brain.
            Maybe it’s time to lay off them.
            There is no excuse for ignorance like yourself in today’s age of information little Joe.
            It’s a choice.

          • JoeFarmer

            No, Neo, you’re still a stupid shltbag troll. Grow TF up.

          • hyperzombie

            OT, Joe what was the name of that crazy assed cult that the flying yogic master is a part of?

          • JoeFarmer

            The Maharishi cult. Vedic nonsense.

          • hyperzombie

            Thanks you ROCK.

          • Mike Stevens

            They even have their own Olympics.
            Crazy.
            https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jlw8CxTkyxA

          • http://www.illuminati-r-us.com/ Reality022

            That’s “flying” in the same way that stepping through a mud puddle is “deep sea diving”.

          • Peter Harris

            “little Joe Pharmer”

            Haha, I like that.
            Maybe Joe is Spanish, and spelt it phonetically, like they do in espanol.

          • Bored Now

            Where is the proof vaccines have prevented any diseases and saved lives

            One word: Seroconversion.

          • FallsAngel
          • Neo

            Nice chart.
            Where is the proof that it had anything to do with vaccines?

          • FallsAngel

            Are you serious?

          • Neo

            Its a chart!
            Did you make it, or wait…..Big Pharma did!
            That’s the proof!

          • Neo

            Hate to burst your little bubble.
            If injecting nurotoxins to create antibodies is the same as acquiring natural antibodies, you wouldn’t have to keep injecting these tocic shots for life .
            That’s only if you make to the late stages of life if you don’t die from the shots like children are.
            Yes thousands of years of human survival that barely made it without vaccines to the vaccine era where human civilization can’t make it now without injecting poisons.
            Lol…you keep believing that bs.
            Again there is no proof vaccines saved anyone.
            Now if your proof or the industries proof is” look we introduced vaccines and diseases declined,” so that must be it right, but all the correlation with children and animals dying from cancers, SVDS and many other nurological issues
            …which they all have one common denominator VACCINES there is no correlation right!
            Keep injecting those toxins to give you the illussion of good health …lol

          • Bored Now

            If injecting nurotoxins

            The word “toxin” is, in this sense ill-defined. If you mean that the substance is toxic at some dose. Sure but so is the water that the vaccine is suspended it. If you mean toxic at the dose given. Then no, there really is no evidence that anything in the vaccines is toxic in the dose given.

            to create antibodies is the same as acquiring natural antibodies

            Well for starters the question was about preventing disease. There is absolutely no necessity for vaccination to be identical to “acquiring natural antibodies” — also known as “getting sick” — in fact. Part of the point of vaccination is to not get sick yet still acquire disease resistance.

            you wouldn’t have to keep injecting these tocic shots for life .

            You don’t in most cases and given that we know there are outcomes which are bad to fatal when people get sick. Provoking a different or even weaker immune response simply makes sense.

            Again there is no proof vaccines saved anyone.

            If by “proof” you mean evidence then sure there is. That seroconversion happens perfectly makes that argument.

          • Mike Stevens

            You’d think someone who imagines he knows about this issue would be able to spell the words “neurotoxin” and “toxic” correctly, wouldn’t you?

          • Bored Now

            Neo has spelled both correctly in the past. So perhaps this is orthographic laziness catching up to the methodological laziness…or maybe it’s an affectation. As I’ve said before I’m always intrigued by the number of folk who post here with some weirdo posting style.

      • Mike Stevens

        Don’t be coy, Saba.
        Wakefield’s study. You know, the fraudulent one.

        • AutismDadd

          Mike is foaming at the mouth….more Wakefield hate

    • AutismDadd

      WAKEFIELD NEVER did a vaccine study EVER!!!! He did medical intervention and research on 12 very sick children, then published his report.

      • My hovercraft is full of eels

        That Mr Andrew Wakefield is an unethical Immoral monster and a giant fraud is indisputable.

        You loons always bleat about paid pharma shills but when you come across a real one you treat him like the next coming.

        • Bed6597

          They literally link to an article that says the link between vaccines and autism has been scientifically rejected, and that vaccinating your pets is important. It also explains how the one study looking for autism in dogs ls ambiguous, and the behaviors exhibited could be from other behavioral disorders. I guess they put a link there hoping no one would actually click and read it.

    • http://stopk9torture.com Suki49

      Time for you to do some research and read the actual papers, instead of regurgitating the pharma mainstream propaganda.

    • L A Anna

      Anything written with the statement that “vaccines can even make your dog autistic” only HURTS the cause for those of us that are trying to get out the message of over-vaccination harm! No matter how possibly “well intended” or not, it undermines any legitimate information about over vaccination and the harm it causes.

    • ciaparker2

      Dr. Wakefield and his colleagues said that it was strange and surprising that all of the children in the case series had gotten the MMR vaccine shortly before developing the symptoms of both autism and bowel disease. They were only investigating the autistic enterocolitis aspect of the children’s bowel disease. They said such a surprising correlation should be studied further. You would not agree? Millions of normally developing children at this point reacting to the MMR (hep-B, DTaP, Hib, and/or flu vaccines) within days or weeks with both bowel disease and autism and you don’t think that’s worth looking at further?

      • Mike Stevens

        “Millions of normally developing children at this point reacting to the
        MMR (hep-B, DTaP, Hib, and/or flu vaccines) within days or weeks with
        both bowel disease and autism and you don’t think that’s worth looking
        at further?”

        If millions had reacted, of course it would have been vital to look at it very closely.
        But it wasn’t “millions”, it was a handful, and when that handful was looked at it was discovered that Wakefield had lied about the timeline to onset of symptoms. He tried so hard to contrive a link that he overdid it, and claimed for many of the kids that they developed pervasive development disorders/autism within a week of MMR vaccine.
        But the case records and GP reports (and even in some cases the parents’ testimonies) showed he was lying.

        • ciaparker2

          Child One developed normally to 18 months of age, and regressed soon after MMR with “a clearly delineated onset with loss of words, comprehension, and social interaction plus secondary fecal and urinary incontinence.” Child Two, William Kessick, developed normally, but regressed after receiving the MMR, developing autism and bowel disease in quick succession. He was hospitalized for severe progressive neurodegeneration. Child Three developed normally followed by sudden changes in
          behavior just 2 days after MMR vaccination at 14 months, when he started head-banging accompanied by fever and rash. At 15 months of age he had hand flapping, and at 2 years of age could no longer speak. His bowel problems starting shortly after the MMR began with diarrhea and progressed to constipation, pain, and blood in the feces. Child Four was suspected of having a congenital disorder at birth because of a wide bridging of his nose, and was closely followed up, but was discharged as developmentally and physically normal at 15 months of age. At that time he got an individual measles vaccine, at which time he stopped cruising around and regressed to crawling. He stopped progressing in language, and at 20 months had lost the words he had learned. He developed loose bowel motions with pain after the measles vaccine, and when he got an MMR at four and a half years old, he disappeared and lost all skills and communication. His case is significant in showing that upon rechallenge with the vaccine, he became much worse. Child Five developed normally until he was 18 months old and got the MMR. Within two months, he started making strange noises, lost normal speech, and became socially unresponsive. At two years of age he developed chronic alternating constipation and diarrhea. Chilren Six and Seven were brothers. Child Six suffered onset of fever, rash, drowsiness, aggression, and convulsions within two weeks of the MMR, followed by developmental regression. He also developed constipation, diarrhea, and passed blood from the rectum. A colonoscopy revealed colitis. That child’s mother decided to delay giving Child Seven the MMR in light of what had happened to his brother. But she was finally pressured into giving him the MMR at 21 months old. Within one month he had become uncoordinated, had lost skills, had alternating constipation and diarrhea. He did not appear to have an inflamed colon at that time, but eventually had progressed to full-blown Crohn’s disease. Child Eight had a heart defect at birth, and at ten months was referred to a developmental pediatrician, who said she was normal. She had successful heart surgery, and made rapid gains in speech and general development. She got the MMR at eighteen months. Guess what happened? One day after getting the MMR she developed rash, fever, convulsions, loss of words, screaming. A developmental pediatrician had examined her at 17 months of age, one month before the MMR. He said she was at the slow end of the normal range, not unexpected in view of her aortic coarctation and major surgery. But when the same pediatrician examined her a few weeks after the MMR, he said she had gone from functioning at a low 17 month level to a 12 month level, a considerable regression. Child Nine developed normally until he got the MMR at eighteen months, when he develped autism and bowel disease. Since her pediatrician had dismissed her concern as silly, the coincidence of the problems with the MMR was not included in the original Lancet study. Child Nine’s father had told the mother to drop mentioning the MMR so as not to compromise the child’s access to clinical care. Child Ten got the MMR at 12 months, developed normally for another four months, got measles at 16 months anyway, and afterwards had a rash, fever, reduced level of consciousness, and, parallel with developmental regression, abdominal pain, diarrhea, colitis, and intolerance for some foods. The measles infection at 16 months may have been a reactivation of vaccine virus infection. Child Twelve got the MMR at 15 months, and developed normally for one more month, when he started getting frequent viral infections and regressed. His GP noted that he had had frequent illnesses since the MMR, but his mother did not link his health problems to the MMR. He lost speech starting at sixteen months of age, and develped vomiting, constipation, diarrhea, and failed to put on weight.

          Child Seven was particularly poignant. HIs brother, Child Six, had already reacted to the MMR with autism and bowel disease, and his mother quite naturally resisted giving him the MMR for some time, but was eventually pressured by her husband and others into giving it to him, at which he promptly regressed into autism too. And then we have the countless thousands upon thousands of normally developing children since that time who have regressed into autism and bowel disease shortly after getting the MMR. Conditions which children did not get before vaccines.

          • Mike Stevens

            That is what Wakefield claimed in his book.
            But most of it was contrived and manipulated to manufacture a link.

            I suggest you read the GMC transcripts and the British Medical Journal articles, Cia.
            http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c7452

          • ciaparker2

            Fiona Godlee? Really? The GMC hearing that Sir John Mitting declared in a High Court hearing to be fraudulent, it could not stand, and therefore he quashed it?
            I looked at your link and noticed that there was not one word as to the timing or other relevant facts of the Lancet Twelve’s receiving the MMR and soon after developing bowel disease and autism. Just said it was fraudulent, no evidence given. Just a lot about how, horrors! measles will come back if parents prefer measles to autism and refuse the MMR.

          • Mike Stevens

            Cia the liar….

            I tell you what Cia.
            Find me the cited text where Justice Miting quashed the GMC charges against Wakefield and declared their case against him “fraudulent”, and I’ll give you $1 million for C’s Trust fund.
            Deal?

            Now let’s see who was lying…

            PS: you need to read the whole BMJ article series to read about Wakefield’s fraudulent distortion of timelines, not just the editorial by the BMJ editor.

          • http://vaccinepapers.org/ Vaccine Papers
          • Mike Stevens

            Nope, no cigar.
            …Wakefield, Dan, ….WAKEFIELD.

            Are you having trouble reading?

          • http://vaccinepapers.org/ Vaccine Papers

            That decision applies to Wakefield as well. The allegations and “evidence” are the same.

            Wakefield has been proven correct by recent science showing 1) that autistic behavior is mediated by enteric toxins from the microbiome, and 2) that early life immune activation disrupts the microbiome in a way that causes autistic behavior.

            The paper below also identifies specific toxin compounds that mediate the abnormal behaviors. This is a key part of Wakefield’s theory.

            Citation: http://vaccinepapers.org/wp-content/uploads/The-microbiota-modulates-gut-physiology-and-behavioral-abnormalities-associated-with-autism.pdf

          • Mike Stevens

            “That decision applies to Wakefield as well. “

            Poor, deluded creature…

            Tell you what, show me where Mitting says that his decision about Walker Smith applied to Wakefield and that the GMC case against him was fraudulent and I’ll throw in $10k for you.

            And stop pimping your website, Dan.

          • Verna Lang

            Amazing! How do you get the crickets to perform on cue like that?

          • Mike Stevens

            “Amazing! How do you get the crickets to perform on cue like that?”

            The synchronous stridulation?
            Easy… I just say “Vaccine” three times while looking into the mirror.

          • Verna Lang

            That decision applies to Wakefield as well? In a pig’s eye. From the official court decision document on the Walker-Smith case: http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2012/503.html

            The joint view of Professor Walker-Smith and Dr. Murch, stated in a letter to Dr. Wakefield on 21st January 1998, was that it was inappropriate to emphasize the role of MMR vaccine in publicity about the paper and that they supported government policy concerning MMR until more firm evidence was available for them to see for themselves. They published a press release to coincide with publication stating their support for “present public health policy concerning MMR”. Dr. Wakefield’s statement and subsequent publicity had a predictable adverse effect upon the take up of MMR vaccine of great concern to those responsible for public health. There is now no respectable body of opinion which supports his hypothesis, that MMR vaccine and autism/enterocolitis are causally linked.

            (Bold added for emphasis)
            I guess you fall into the disreputable body of opinion category.

          • ciaparker2

            “Justice John Mitting ruled on the appeal by Walker-Smith, saying that the GMC “panel’s determination cannot stand. I therefore quash it.” He said that its conclusions were based on “inadequate and superficial reasoning and, in a number of instances, a wrong conclusion.” The verdict restores Walker-Smith’s name to the medical register and his reputation to the medical community. This conclusion is not surprising, as the GMC trial had no actual complainants, no harm came to the children who were studied, and parents supported Walker-Smith and Wakefield through the trial, reporting that their children had medically benefited from the treatment they received at the Royal Free Hospital.”
            I didn’t say against Wakefield. Sir Mitting ruled on the GMC hearing as it related to Walker-Smith and Murch: Wakefield’s insurance wouldn’t pay for him to be part of that lawsuit based on the fraudulent nature of the GMC hearing which took the licenses of all three of them.
            I’ve been working all day, haven’t had lunch, C just got home and we need to work on Japan leading up to WWII. I had no idea about the Nanking massacre. When I was 18 I offended a Chinese boy in a German class when I asked if he were Japanese: he said coldly “I am not a barbarian,” and I was embarrassed. Boy, now I can see why he was offended.
            And no, if you disagree with the timing as presented by Wakefield, you need to cite your specific quibble. What is it? Number of Child and dates.

          • Mike Stevens

            “if you disagree with the timing as presented by Wakefield, you need to
            cite your specific quibble. What is it? Number of Child and dates.”

            http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5347

            In short:

            “The Lancet paper was a case series of 12 child patients; it reported a proposed “new syndrome” of enterocolitis and regressive autism and associated this with MMR as an “apparent precipitating event.”

            But in fact:

            –Three of nine children reported with regressive autism did not have autism diagnosed at all. Only one child clearly had regressive autism.

            –Despite the paper claiming that all 12 children were “previously normal,” five had documented pre-existing developmental concerns.

            –Some children were reported to have experienced first behavioural symptoms within days of MMR, but the records documented these as starting some months after vaccination.

            –In nine cases, unremarkable colonic histopathology results—noting no or minimal fluctuations in inflammatory cell populations—were changed after a medical school “research review” to “non-specific colitis”.

            –The parents of eight children were reported as blaming MMR, but 11 families made this allegation at the hospital. The exclusion of three allegations—all giving times to onset of problems in months—helped to create the appearance of a 14 day temporal link.

            –Patients were recruited through anti-MMR campaigners, and the study was commissioned and funded for planned litigation.

          • Verna Lang

            It is clear that the court decision in the Walker-Smith case was separate from and had nothing to do with any exoneration of Wakefield. In fact, Walker-Smith had documented evidence that he disagreed with Wakefield’s press conference linking MMR with the paper. It is clear from the official court decision that Wakefield was considered to be in disrepute.
            http://www.bailii.org/ew/ca

            The joint view of Professor Walker-Smith and Dr. Murch, stated in a letter to Dr. Wakefield on 21st January 1998, was that it was inappropriate to emphasize the role of MMR vaccine in publicity about the paper and that they supported government policy concerning MMR until more firm evidence was available for them to see for themselves. They published a press release to coincide with publication stating their support for “present public health policy concerning MMR”. Dr. Wakefield’s statement and subsequent publicity had a predictable adverse effect upon the take up of MMR vaccine of great concern to those responsible for public health. There is now no respectable body of opinion which supports his hypothesis, that MMR vaccine and autism/enterocolitis are causally linked.

            (Bold added for emphasis)

          • ciaparker2

            The decision in the W-S case was based on the same GMC hearing which took the licenses of Drs. Walker-Smith, Murch, and Wakefield, who, along with several others who recanted their purported heresy when told to do so, had worked as a team on the case study on which the Lancet article and the hearing were based. Dr. Walker-Smith reviewed and approved all the information in question, and he was fully exonerated of any wrongdoing, his license restored, in the High Court hearing.

            Since it has been proven to be TRUE that the MMR often causes autism and bowel disease in many of the children it is given to, and TRUE in the case of the Lancet Twelve that they developed both bowel disease and autism shortly after getting the MMR, the effort to keep the facts from public knowledge has been a public disgrace from the beginning. No possible damage accruing from these three natural diseases could possibly be as great as that caused these children for life. But if the public turns away from the MMR and other vaccines, as it has to some degree, then that cuts into the profits of the vaccine companies, who do not give a fig if 100% of the vaccinated children get autism and bowel disease as a result. Public health would be a million times better served by letting the diseases come back, and taking homeopathic nosodes to prevent rubella in girls of childbearing age.

            All respectable people recognize how dangerous these and all vaccines are. Those with a lot of money on the line are the only ones who try to deny the obvious. These scoundrels have money, power, and influence, but no integrity.

          • Verna Lang

            Did you not read the quote from the court decision? The Walker-Smith decision applied only to Walker-Smith. The court took into account that W-S was acting as a clinician rather than a researcher and was not bound by the required ethics approval that Wakefield neglected to obtain. It also concluded that Walker-Smith and Murch tried to mitigate the harm that they felt Wakefield was doing by publicly linking the MMR vaccine to autism/enterocolitis on what was then insufficient, but later determined to be fraudulent, evidence.
            How could anyone see that statement from the court decision “There is now no respectable body of opinion which supports his (Wakefield’s) hypothesis, that MMR vaccine and autism/enterocolitis are causally linked” and still think that this decision somehow defends Wakefield? And say “it has been proven to be TRUE that the MMR often causes autism and bowel disease.” I guess blind faith really is blind.

          • ciaparker2

            Since Dr. Wakefield was not a party to that lawsuit, as his insurance would not pay for it, Justice Mitting had no jurisdiction over him and could not have made any decision regarding him. The report on the case series ended by observing that it had not been the purpose of the series to consider whether the MMR had caused both the autism and the bowel disease in these children, but that it had been a surprising finding that both occurred in such close proximity to the receipt of the vaccine, and that these researchers thought that further study of this point was warranted. No honest person could disagree with that. No reputable researcher could have noticed such a surprising adverse event occurring in so many cases so close to the vaccine and just brushed it under the carpet as you and your colleagues wish so devoutly that they had done.

            Yes. Justice Mitting found that the GMC had reached shallow conclusions with no supporting evidence. He quashed it. He mandated that future disciplinary actions by the GMC include a legal panel to attempt to avoid the abuses of that hearing in the future. The hearing was a kangaroo court, as we have seen so many times since then, designed only to punish those who tell the truth about vaccine damage in order to keep public trust and keep them in the vaccine lines for as long as possible. When Brian Deer was asked who had paid him to attend so many hours of the hearings, he said that the Sunday Times and a television channel had paid him to do so. When asked, both denied having paid him for this, saying that they had paid him as a freelance journalist on previous occasions, but not on that one. So who paid him? Who paid him to lie and conduct a worldwide public burning of Dr. Wakefield? Many of the parents of the extremely sick Lancet children said that he had bullied their families, barging into their homes aggressively and browbeating them, stealing medical records and altering them. Who is the villain here? Certainly Deer and all those who might try to defend him.

          • Verna Lang

            Wash, rinse repeat. It’s not supposed to be an infinite loop, Cia. Wakefield would not have won a similar lawsuit because the court clearly heard enough evidence to brand Wakefield as not respectable. If you read the court document they also kicked around Wakefield’s ethics. The reason Walker-Smith won his case was because he presented sufficient evidence that he was different from Wakefield, not the same.

          • Mike Stevens

            Exactly.

          • ciaparker2

            You just say that because you are both employed to trash Wakefield. He did nothing wrong. He was and continues to be a hero. His ethics? What would you know about ethics?

          • Verna Lang

            I am not employed by anyone except me, so you are making up a lie. I apparently know far more about ethics than you do, since you are defending a con man and a scoundrel that has been exposed for ethical violations not only by the GMC, but by the court that restored Walker-Smith to the medical registry.

          • Mike Stevens

            “You just say that because you are both employed to trash Wakefield. He did nothing wrong. He was and continues to be a hero.”

            I had no idea the NHS employed people specifically to trash Wakefield.
            I don’t need payment to do so, anyhow – I am happy to do it for free!

            Tell us Cia, is there absolutely nothing he has ever done wrong?
            (Even he admitted “wrongdoing” during his GMC case. But I guess you’d say he was a liar??)

          • Bored Now

            Do you really think anyone, anyone at all is employed strictly to make fun of Wakefield?

          • FallsAngel

            Apparently she does. cia’s that far “off the rails”.

          • Bored Now

            I get people who are critical vaccines might consider Wakefield to be misunderstood or even innocent but a “hero” let alone one of the greatest hero’s of our time? Like Nelson Mandela, Mother Theresa, Martin Luther King Jr., Ghandi, Aung San Suu Kyi, Rosa Parks all take a back seat to Wakefield? The mind boggles?

          • AutismDadd

            Nope. The Walker Smith case was decided mainly on the contention there was an unauthorized research component along with the medical intervention. Neither man was authorized to do research. There was debate about where to draw the line in what appeared to be a gray area. They sided with Walker Smith on the issue but not with Wakefield. Try reading about it so I don’t have to school you.

          • Verna Lang

            “Neither man was authorized to do research.”
            Try reading more than the first few sentences. I know it may take you hours to get to the second point, which is under the heading of ‘Undisputed Facts’ at the beginning of the court decision, but you will then get to this gem:

            From 1992 until May 1997 Dr. Wakefield was Senior Lecturer in medicine and histopathology and Director of Research of the Inflammatory Bowel Disease Study Group at the Royal Free Hospital School of Medicine. Although trained as a surgeon, he was not a clinician and was not allowed to practise as such.

            So according to you, Wakefield was Director of Research and not allowed to do research, and he was not allowed to do clinical practise in the hospital. either. What did he do? Wash glassware?

          • AutismDadd

            I said nothing about him being director of research but since you bring it up it supports what I said about Walker Smith being viewed in one way, Wakefield another, yet 3 were charged and it shows the bungling when two are found innocent and the other still is framed over definitions of what occurred in a gray area. They simply decided he did clinical work then, while Walker Smith got the benefit of the doubt.

          • Verna Lang

            What part of “he was not a clinician and was not allowed to practise as such” did you not understand. Wakefield committed grievous ethics violations while working as a researcher. He was not allowed to practise on the children himself, but as a researcher, he was responsible for clearing the procedures that were planned with the ethics committee. He did not have get that permission. Therefore Wakefield had no right to arrange any of those invasive procedures that were done to those kids. Wakefield could not have used W-S’s defense strategy because he was never allowed to act as a clinician, only a researcher.
            Walker-Smith was the one in the grey area. His defence was that he was acting as a clinician rather than a researcher, and he felt that there was sufficient medical need for the invasive procedures that he did for diagnostic reasons. The court agreed that there was reasonable doubt whether the procedures done were done for clinical or research related reasons nd W-S’s name was restored.

          • AutismDadd

            What rubbish. We are discussing a collaboration between Wakefield and Walker Smith. They weren’t separate entities in this case, but team members. One would act as clinician, one as researcher. What was attacked unfairly were gray areas. You make it sound like Royal Free Hospital was little more that a Monty Python sketch where no one ever followed protocol or met to discuss or plan. Its obvious your opinions come from media trash and Brian deer.

          • Verna Lang

            Did I mention the Royal Free Hospital at all? No, you did. The hospital was just another victim by association of Wakefield’s fraud. Wakefield was big boy. He was supposed to act responsibly as a researcher. The hospital entrusted him to conduct himself in an ethical manner. Just because one researcher like Wakefield chose to behave in a disreputable manner does not mean that the entire hospital was tainted or implicated in Wakefield’s fraud and the staff would likely be mortally offended to be compared to him in any way, shape or form.

          • AutismDadd

            There were 13 people involved if not more. You imply over and over there were no safeguards, no meetings, just a bunch of unethical goings on at every turn. Its shows you haven’t the mettle to understand you have been had.

          • Verna Lang

            Cool story, bro. Too bad it’s not even close to anything I wrote.

          • AutismDadd

            What you write is little but exaggeration allegation, and supposition. Excuse me for introducing clarity to it.

          • Mike Stevens

            The court ruling on Walker Smith pertained to the GMC finding that Walker Smith was knowingly performing research Wakefield’s behalf.

            The essence of WS’s succesful appeal was that he was so misled by Wakefield that he (WS) had no idea he was doing research, and thought he was just performing standard clinical care. Leaving aside the question of whether that really was what he thought (I personally think WS knew full well what was going on;- he is not an ignorant dupe), the basic fact is that his appeal succeeded because the GMC had not shown sufficient reasoning to prove their case in this regard, and Mitting had to quash the finding.

            So WS basically threw Wakefield under the bus – he claimed he was duped by Wakefield, and “knew nothing”.

            “Many of the parents of the extremely sick Lancet children said that he had bullied their families, barging into their homes aggressively and browbeating them, stealing medical records and altering them.”

            More lies and fantasy from you Cia.
            Some parents didn’t appreciate Deer’s direct methods, sure, but he never “stole” or “altered” records. The medical records became freely available for scrutiny following the GMC hearing when they were placed in the public domain. Deer followed up on that, discovered the discrepancies, and acted like a good investigative journalist, exposing Wakefield’s fraud.

            The transcripts of the GMC hearings clearly establish timelines from GP evidence, hospital records and parental testimony which differ from those in Wakefield’s paper. You don’t need Deer to point that out.

            Like it or not, your boy had his face rubbed in the dirt not just once (GMC) but twice (fraud exposure). If you think he is innocent of wrongdoing, then where is his succesful GMC appeal, and where is his succesful libel action against the BMJ and Brian Deer?
            Answer? – Nowhere.
            His Medical Insurers said he would lose a GMC appeal and didn’t wish to fund it. Wakefield raised sufficient funds from bilking millions of $$ off his gullible acolytes to fund an appeal, but never actually appealed, and similarly never sued the BMJ for libel either.

            And don’t forget what Justice Mitting said at the Walker Smith appeal:
            “There is now no respectable body of opinion which supports his [Wakefield’s] hypothesis, that MMR vaccine and autism/ enterocolitis are causally linked.”

            PS: I hope you have some proof for your claim that Deer “stole medical records and altered them.” Without proof, that is serious libel, and I will make sure that Brian Deer knows about your accusation. You may hear from his lawyers in due course…

          • AutismDadd

            I heard the British Medical Journal paid Deer. the BMJ is funded mainly by Vaccine makers. I know, you’re shocked. What’s you take on O’Leary? Verna already tried the usual asswipe response to it, because she jumped on the first thing Google spit out.

          • ciaparker2

            I saw that in the passage from Dr. Moskowitz’ superb book that I put up here earlier about Dr. Wakefield. Check it out, it should be above, it’s really interesting!

            ” Beginning in 2003, the British Medical Journal commissioned Brian Deer, a free-lance reporter for the Sunday Times of London, to investigate every aspect of W’s life and career. Deer’s ongoing, award-winning defamations were serialized in the BMJ, and republished in a number of news outlets in the US and UK. Some of the most serious accusations were that W had limited his studies to patients handpicked by the lawyer representing them in a pending damage lawsuit against the vaccine manufacturers, and had been paid handsomely in secret for doing so; that he falsified his data; and that his research had never been replicated elsewhere.
            Meanwhile, no doubt prompted at least in part by Deer’s work, the Lancet mounted its own investigations to determine if its ethical standards had been violated. Although the sources of their complaints were not specified, they dutifully mined the terrain that Deer had already mapped out, namely,…”

          • AutismDadd

            And don’t forget the Murdoch factor. They used their media empire, had direct knowledge of Deer and after W was framed by the GMC James was appointed to the board of MMR maker GlaxoSmithKline. How’s that for Big Pharma and Big Media collusion?

          • ciaparker2

            Contemptible. What do you think of its having been the Tdap given to pregnant women in Brazil starting nine months before the first surge of microcephaly interacting with the Zika virus to cause the microcephaly in so many children? Never tested it for safety in pregnant women or their babies (or anyone else). The Brazilian government just quietly took down its Web page with its new vaccine recommendation and never said a word more about it. And the excessive cases of microcephaly stopped occurring when they stopped vaccinating pregnant women. Goodness gracious, the expression “there’s going to be the devil to pay” takes on new meaning when we look at the villainy and st-pidity of so many vaccine overlords and their minions.

          • Mike Stevens

            Cia is so mired in cognitive dissonance that even if Wakefield himself stated the decision applied just to Walker Smith and not to Wakefield, Cia would call him a liar.

          • Verna Lang

            I respond to Cia every blue moon or so. I guess in the hope that one day she may surprise us all some day and learn how to operate her brain.

          • AutismDadd

            How about operating your own brain cell first?

          • AutismDadd

            Taken out of context of course. And Mitting is no authority on what he spoke of. He should have buttoned up his lip

          • Verna Lang

            So the presiding judge who had the responsibility of deciding that case was not supposed to give his decision?

          • AutismDadd

            Nice attempt to talk crap. He had no authority to makes statements about Wakefield at Walker Smith’s trial. Wakefield was not on trial. Mitting was likely encouraged to say it simply because of the appearance Walker Smith’s EXONERATION gave.

          • Verna Lang

            This is comedy gold! The whole defence of Walker-Smith hinged on how he behaved differently from Wakefield. It would have been impossible for the judge to deliver an opinion without mentioning Wakefield 145 times.
            Amazing, not to mention amusing, how this court case has gone from ‘poor Andy Wakefield would have been EXONERATED by this judge if his insurance company had only paid to bring it to court’ according to the pro-disease lobby to ‘pay no attention to this court case, the judge was part of the conspiracy.’

          • AutismDadd

            Your’s is comedy crap. And more crap.

          • AutismDadd

            Making it up in desperation.

          • AutismDadd

            What both the Murch and Walker Smith exonerations showed was the witch hunt was baseless. Wakefield’s conviction was a sham as well but we know their vendetta against him word make winning any case near impossible.

          • ciaparker2

            You are going back to Deer’s allegations. But Mitting in reviewing the Walker-Smith case reviews whether the paper reported accurately and forms the opinion that it did. It would not have been a defense for Walker-Smith that Wakefield had altered data behind his back (which would have reflected on his competence). Moreover, Mitting notes how Walker-Smith formed his interpretation independently of Wakefield and gave a presentation on it (to the Wellcome Foundation?)

            Deer manipulates data from GP notes but although Mitting never refers to him, he correctly avers that this material is of very limited use compared with the data collected and coordinated in the paper by specialists – moreover Walker-Smith is accredited with taking the patient histories in all but one case, so any errors in those would be his. It has been pointed also that the authors had data from the children’s personal medical records (Red Books) which were available neither to Deer or the GMC.

            Walker-Smith’s defense depended on the integrity of the paper and this was upheld after being reviewed by a High Court judge and not appealed by the GMC.
            The fraud was Brian Deer, hired to discredit the doctors who pointed out the strange fact that autism and bowel disease first occurred in these children shortly after receiving the MMR, or simple measles vaccine in one case.

          • AutismDadd

            Was that made up by Brian deer?

          • My hovercraft is full of eels

            I’ll give him one trillion dollars. InfinityJillion dollars.

          • AutismDadd

            Here we see Mike slipping up and doing his Brian. Brian calls everyone a liar.

          • ciaparker2

            ” Notwithstanding the restraint of his language and the moderation of his claims, the evidence he presented made him a marked man for the vaccine industry and their physician-advocates (NB: like….) in both Britain and the US. Almost immediately, a new crop of epidemiological studies were published that loudly and unanimously denied any causal link between the MMR vaccine and autism. In 2001, he relocated to the US, after having been removed from his position at the London hospital where his research had been conducted.
            Beginning in 2003, the British Medical Journal commissioned Brian Deer, a free-lance reporter for the Sunday Times of London, to investigate every aspect of W’s life and career. Deer’s ongoing, award-winning defamations were serialized in the BMJ, and republished in a number of news outlets in the US and UK. Some of the most serious accusations were that W had limited his studies to patients handpicked by the lawyer representing them in a pending damage lawsuit against the vaccine manufacturers, and had been paid handsomely in secret for doing so; that he falsified his data; and that his research had never been replicated elsewhere.
            Meanwhile, no doubt prompted at least in part by Deer’s work, the Lancet mounted its own investigations to determine if its ethical standards had been violated. Although the sources of their complaints were not specified, they dutifully mined the terrain that Deer had already mapped out, namely,
            1. that prior ethical approval was not obtained for invasive procedures performed on some of the children, contrary to what the article claimed;
            2. that prior ethical approval was obtained for a study that was entirely different from the one that the article was based on;
            3. that the children studied were not consecutively referred to the GI clinic, as the article claimed, but invited by the authors to participate in it;
            4. that the children were part of a group project funded by Legal Aid to seek grounds for pursuing legal action against the vaccine manufacturer on their behalf, a project headed by Dr. W and not disclosed in the journal;
            5. that the results of the study were in fact used in subsequent legal action, begun prior to publication, and likewise not disclosed to the journal; and
            6. that Dr. W was paid 55,000 pounds by the Legal Aid Board for his work, including the study, which thus represented a conflict of financial interest that should have been disclosed but was not.
            To his credit, Dr. Richard Horton, the editor-in-chief, ruled that the first three allegations were without merit; but he upheld the remaining allegations that there was indeed a conflict of interest that might well have influenced him not to publish the article if it had been: ‘ Dr. Wakefield had two roles. He was the lead investigator in the study of a new syndrome of bowel and psychiatric symptoms. He was also commissioned by a lawyer to undertake virological investigations as part of a study funded by Legal Aid. When he submitted his 1998 paper, this second study was not disclosed and should have been, even though many of the children were involved in both studies, which also involved different aspects of his work. Because of that dual role, the perception of a conflict of interest remains.’
            (cont’d)

          • ciaparker2

            ” To make a long story short, Wakefield’s 1998 article was formally retracted, for one of the very few times in the journal’s more than century-long history. Although the verdict seems unnecessarily harsh, Dr. W must have known that his Legal Aid work would be perceived as a conflict of interest, and suspected that Horton might reject the article if this hidden agenda were revealed, as Horton’s own statement later confirmed.
            In other words, rather than being simply the innocent victim of a witch hunt, the default assumption among his supporters, perhaps he deliberately chose to run the risk, in spite of knowing that he might well be disciplined for it, because it was the only possible way for his all-important findings to be made public under the circumstances. The result was a witch hunt just the same; but I admire him all the more for doing what was right and necessary and suffering the consequences, gratuitously cruel though they were. From that vantage point, what he did and how he did it achieved a tremendous victory for mankind, both for science and for speaking the truth, however rarely acknowledged as such.
            In 2010, the UK General Medical Council’s own disciplinary investigation concluded by revoking Dr. Wakefield’s license to practice, along with that of his senior colleague, Dr. John Walker-Smith. To disprove Deer’s accusation that he and Wakefield had fabricated their evidence, Walker-Smith revealed that he himself had presented findings of autism and autoimmune enterocolitis in the children who participated in the study well before W’s involvement in it, and was therefore duly exonerated.
            As for Wakefield, the American medical community has still not forgiven him for the mere suggestion that the triple MMR might have been responsible in some cases; but he has since become a featured speaker at conferences in the US and abroad, an outspoken advocate for the cause of safer vaccines and parental choice, and the beloved hero and worthy champion of the parents of vaccine-injured children everywhere who look to him for inspiration, guidance, and comfort in their bottomless pit of grief and travail.
            Meanwhile, relying on the same research expressly undertaken to refute his findings, the medical establishment in both countries has continued to deny any causal link between the MMR and autism, and to congratulate itself that W’s perceived threat to their reigning mythology has been disposed of, seemingly ignorant of the fact that his biopsy findings have been repeatedly confirmed by other investigators, as has his observation that the UK, which uses the same diagnostic criteria that we do, reported a dramatic and alarming increase in the rate of autism cases ten years after our own, beginning at precisely the time when the MMR vaccine was introduced on a mass scale in Britain.
            It bears repeating that his article was retracted and his license revoked solely on the basis of the alleged conflict of interest, not because of his biopsy specimens and virological findings, the objective validity of which remains intact and unchallenged, no matter how his subjects were selected. Moreover, largely in response to his work, the same combination of autistic and other forms of brain damage, enterocolitis, and food and environmental allergies has been reported by large numbers of parents throughout the US, the UK, Canada, Australia, Western Europe, and parts of Asia, while integrative physicians in the US have published many case reports to show that relieving the allergies and GI symptoms with natural methods such as vitamin, supplement, and diet have proved beneficial for the autistic syndroms as well.
            But the ultimate refutation of these smug denials has recently come from deep inside the heart of the medical establishment itself, from revelations by a CDC scientist that the agency knew for at least 15 years that the MMR posed significant risk of autism and deliberately buried the information, as we shall see, while even the dreaded Vaccine Court, heavily weighted against victims though it remains, has begun to make awards in a few particularly egregious cases.”

          • ciaparker2

            And so we see that Dr. Wakefield is one of the greatest heroes of our age. He could have played by the rules and kept the truth about the MMR, autism, and bowel disease under wraps, and profited greatly thereby. Or he could break a minor rule, with major consequences, for the sake of benefitting humanity, which he did, and for which I am eternally grateful. I’ll bet he doesn’t give a damn about the approval of such as you, Verna Lang, and Brian Deer. I know I wouldn’t.

          • My hovercraft is full of eels

            Haha. He is on par with Mengele.
            An unethical Immoral monster.

          • ogam5

            …..no, YOU more closely resemble Josef’s personality profile, actually…..

          • My hovercraft is full of eels

            Stellar comeback.
            Pointing and laughing at the pro-disease cult moron.

          • Bored Now

            And so we see that Dr. Wakefield is one of the greatest heroes of our age.

            I don’t think anyone can take you seriously anymore cia.

            with major consequences,

            ….now he gets to live off the backs of the people he pretended to help.

          • AutismDadd

            Wow. Yea lets read the lies and fall for it.

          • AutismDadd

            Yea Mike recommends you read reports from those who did everything in their power to silence someone critical of vaccines.

          • Mike Stevens

            No Cia. The facts are at great variance from your tale. Even Wakefield contradicts what you say. For example, let’s take just one of the Lancet 12, Child 1.

            You claim: “Child One developed normally to 18 months of age, and regressed soon after MMR with “a clearly delineated onset with loss of words, comprehension, and social interaction plus secondary fecal and urinary incontinence.””

            A lie.
            Child 1 was vaccinated with MMR at 12 months. [Wakefield even said so in his paper.]
            http://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/lancet/PIIS0140-6736(97)11096-0.pdf

            Here is the truth of what happened:
            http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5347.full.print

            Child 1, aged 3 years when he was referred to London, lived 100 miles from the Royal Free, and had an older brother who was diagnosed as autistic.76 Child 1’s recorded story began when he was aged 9 months, with a “new patient” note by general practitioner Andrea Barrow.77
            One of the mother’s concerns was that he could not hear properly—which might sound like a hallmark presentation of classical autism, the emergence of which is often insidious. Indeed, a Royal Free history, by neurologist and coauthor Peter Harvey, noted “normal milestones” until “18 months or so.”78

            Child 1 was vaccinated at 12 months of age, however. 79 Thus neither 9 nor 18 months helped Wakefield’s case. But in the Lancet, the “first behavioural symptom” was reported “1 week” after the injection, holding the evidence for the lawsuit on track.

            Step 1 to achieve this: two and a half years after the child was vaccinated, Walker-Smith took an outpatient history. Although the mother apparently had no worries following her son’s vaccination,80
            the professor elicited that the boy was “pale” 7-10 days after the shot. He also elicited that the child “possibly” had a fever, and “may”
            have been delirious, as well as pale.81

            “It’s difficult to associate a clear historical link with the MMR and the
            answer to autism,” Walker-Smith wrote to the general practitioner,82
            with a similar letter to Wakefield, “although [Mrs 1] does believe that [child 1] had an illness 7-10 days after MMR when he was pale, ?fever, ?delirious, but wasn’t actually seen by a doctor.”

            Step 2: for the Lancet, Wakefield dropped the question marks, turning Walker-Smith’s queries into assertions. And, although Royal Free admission83 and discharge84 records refer to “classical” autism, step 3, the former surgeon reported “delirium” as the first “behavioural symptom” of regressive autism, with, step 4, a “time to onset” of 7 days.

          • ciaparker2

            The following is from Dr. Richard Moskowitz’ groundbreaking book Vaccines, from p. 90 on.
            “The Wakefield Saga:
            The first breakthrough came in 1995, when Andrew Wakefield, MD, a British gastroenterologist studying autoimmune inflammatory bowel disease, published a retrospective study in The Lancet, comparing 3,550 adults who had received the measles vaccine as infants with 11,400 of their peers who had not. To his amazement, the vaccinated group was found to be three times more likely than their unvaccinated controls to develop Crohn’s disease later in life, and twice as likely to develop ulcerative colitis. Strangely enough, this shocking finding received comparatively little attention on either side of the pond; and as far as I’m aware, nobody has ever refuted or even challenged it.
            But its effect on Dr. W was life-changing. In 1998, he published a series of follow-up experiments with several colleagues that created a worldwide sensation, prompted the Lancet to retract the article based on their findings, caused the lead investigators to lose their jobs and medical licenses, and has already changed medical history.
            Eight children with a history of normal development who developed autism or encephalitis soon after their MMR vaccination were referred to Dr. W’s clinic for GI evaluation because of additional signs and symptoms of enterocolitis. Biopsies of the ileum and colon revealed lymphoid hyperplasia in a pattern characteristic of Crohn’s disease and ulcerative colitis, both major autoimmune diseases, but, as he was very carefu to say,
            ‘ We did not prove an association between MMR vaccine and the syndrome described. Virological studies are underway that may help to resolve this issue. If there is a causal link between the vaccine and the syndrome, a rising incidence might be anticipated after the introduction of this vaccine to the UK in 1988. Published evidence is inadequate to show whether this is a change4 in incidence or a link to the vaccine.’
            Two years later, he gave sworn testimony to a committee of the US Congress that the virological studies he had spoken of had indeed revealed antibodies to measles in these lymphocyte aggregations, but not to mumps, rubella, or other viruses, and that such patients were subsequently found to be less able than age-matched, unvaccinated controls to respond normally to other common antigens to which they had previously been exposed, such as the DPt vaccine, dust mites, and Candida albicans, and more prone to asthma, hay fever, eczema, otitis media, and URIs as well. Still, he made no claim that MMR was ‘the cause’ of autism, and indeed went no further than recommending that its measles, mumps, and rubella componenets be administered separately.
            (cont’d below)

          • Mike Stevens

            “The following is from Dr. Richard Moskowitz…”

            Sorry Cia, I couldn’t read any further because I was laughing so much.

          • ciaparker2

            No surprises there. You don’t give a tinker’s damn for children’s health, only vaccine sales. I thought you might find the information about Wakefield’s early study interesting showing that the MMR greatly increased the incidence of Crohn’s and ulcerative colitis in those who got it, but I guess $$$ trump everything for you.

          • Mike Stevens

            “I thought you might find the information about Wakefield’s early study interesting showing that the MMR greatly increased the incidence of Crohn’s and ulcerative colitis in those who got it”

            I am always interested in information about MMR, Cia. However, not all the information pushed my way is true.
            The possible association between measles/MMR and IBD has been studied, and found to be spurious and unsupported by subsequent population based studies.
            https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.2165/00002018-200124130-00001.pdf

            But I am fascinated by your own selective cherrypicking of the studies, Cia.

            What for instance do you make of this study which concluded:
            “No statistically significant association was found between measles vaccination status at 5 yr and Crohn’s disease (adjusted odds ratio [OR] 0.67, 95% confidence interval [CI] 0.27-1.63), ulcerative colitis (adjusted OR 0.57, 95% CI 0.20-1.61), or diabetes (adjusted OR 0.75, 95% CI 0.33-1.74).”

            Who do you think the author was?
            Hint… his initials are AJW.
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11151885

            And what do you make of the studies which confirmed that Wakefield’s group had not detected measles antigen in his IBD bowel samples, but were all false positives? (They were detecting normal cross-reacting tissue antigens because they used the wrong type of anti-measles nucleocapsid antibody?)
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1728330/pdf/v048p00748.pdf
            This last paper may be a bit high powered for you to follow, Cia, but it is an excellent one which looks in depth at the diagnostic research on this issue, and clearly shows how Wakefield’s results for both RNA PCR and measles antigen were false positives (which is very reminiscent of his autism bowel work, isn’t it?).

            Anyway, can you also tell me please Cia why MMR would cause Crohn’s disease, but wild type measles virus would not?
            After all, Wakefield’s hypothesis was that measles virus exposure at a certain time frame when the host was particularly susceptible would lead to established chronic measles virus infection in the bowel where an inflammatory reaction would result in IBD/Crohn’s.

            It sounds very much as though chronic bowel disease needs to be added to the long list of nasty things that natural measles infection can do (if this is correct). So I would agree… measles is pretty nasty, and preventing it is a great idea rather than your stupid one where you want everyone to get it, and “who cares” if it makes them ill or if some die.

          • Mike Stevens

            Oh, and I also thought you’d like this, since you did claim:
            “MMR greatly increased the incidence of Crohn’s”
            😉
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/565bf74677c7c59f426cb104f2d474114d390123276e5bc244c1558ba0fc8395.jpg

          • AutismDadd

            This means Mike understands the truth is out there.

          • My hovercraft is full of eels

            Moscowich has a well deserved reputation as an incompetent quack

          • ciaparker2

            That’s certainly what all vaccine shills sponsored by the vaccine companies say. The concerned reader will be very impressed and disturbed by Dr. Moskowitz’ evidence, with many studies cited.
            I’m blocking you. You’re not worth the time of day, whoever you are.

          • My hovercraft is full of eels

            Of course you are. Its what intelectuall cowards .

          • ogam5

            ….SPOKEN like one…..

          • My hovercraft is full of eels

            That makes exactly as much sense as every other stupid thing the pro-disease cult morons spout.

            Why are they always so grammer disabled?

          • My hovercraft is full of eels

            It’s been refuted many times.Mr Wakefield is an unethical Immoral monster

          • ogam5

            …..even YALE has established the correlation that Wakefield suggested – at what point DO you people stop FIXATING on him and start taking some real RESPONSIBILITY for your OWN institutional ignorance?

          • My hovercraft is full of eels

            Nope. That is another pro-disease cult lie.

          • AutismDadd

            Yawn. Mike wants us to believe a difference in opinion is a conspiracy. Ever hear the saying ” Get a second opinion” That’s all this is.

          • Peter Harris

            I had to laugh this morning, when I woke up and checked my messages.
            Yesterday, I chased up Mike on a question from 2 months ago he failed to answer.

            I won’t screenshot it, or send the link, I’ll just copy and paste here…

            Mike Stevens Jeroen Deva Geetesh
            2 months ago
            Name one childhood vaccine injected directly into the bloodstream and I’ll give you $10,000.

            5
            Reply
            Peter Harris Mike Stevens
            25 days ago
            So how are those vaccines injected into the body??

            So before I went to bed, I asked the question again.” where does the vaccine go, when it leaves the syringe, and I woke up to this answer…

            “Mike Stevens Peter Harris 10 hours ago
            You ask so many questions I don’t know which ones you imagine I must answer.
            It must be difficult for you being so unknowledgeable.

            Did you mean these 2 questions above:
            ‘Would you like me to post the dictionary definition of a cure, or can you look it up yourself?’

            Answer:
            Yes, and no.
            Ok now?

            ….You can now post the definition, whenever it suits you.”

            The problem it seems, while waiting on an answer from an old question from 2 months ago, it seems he cannot deal with a second question, and that is a simple definition of a cure.
            This pathetic avoidance, is so laughable, I’m starting to feel sorry for this poor dumb fool.

          • Peter Harris

            Hey, I’ve caught Mike out as a fake and a fraud, but that probably doesn’t come to any surprise to you.
            I explained how on other forums, but it got stuck in “pending” or as spam.

          • AutismDadd

            They all break down over time and expose themselves as baffoons.

          • AutismDadd

            Quit lying

          • AutismDadd

            Well done Cia.

        • Stephanie Davies

          Not sure what you would call a handful. But I would invite you to come and see my 25 year old grandson who was a perfectly normal baby until he had the MMR vaccine. He never laughed again – he is now a giant baby. Autistic and brain damaged. I don’t call him a ‘handful of cases’.

          Most of these babies and children are ‘covered up’.Like the poster below – he has no speech. Started head banging to a distressing degree.

    • Neo

      You know you have no clue when you bring Wakefield in the conversation.

    • AutismDadd

      You are a fraud. You are parroting media trash

  • Marge Grossi Scanlon

    I figured this out quite a while ago. I do not vaccinate every year with the booster shots. Usually extend those out to two to 2 1/2 years and I purchase them from Tractor Supply and administer them myself. I read an article that there is no such thing as a three year rabies vaccine even though we pay for that. I even give my cat her shots. They are all extremely healthy and happy pets.

    • Mikayla Placke

      So you claim you don’t want to harm your pets but then admit to getting them from a crappy store? You have no idea how that store receives or stores their vaccines. If they arnt shipped or stored properly they will do more harm than good. You really are better off listening to someone who had an education on the subject then a news article who still claims vaccines cause autism.. (they don’t) and There is such a thing as a 3 year rabies

      • Amber

        I was a vet tech for over 15 years before retiring.The 3 year rabies vaccine is exactly the same shot/dose as a 1year rabies..the only difference is they charge you more and check a different box on your rabies certificate.

        • Mikayla Placke

          Any place iv worked the 1year and 3 year cost the same

    • cindy s

      It’s the same Rabies vax for 1 or 3 years, the paperwork is the difference, that’s it. I just had my dog vaccinated, the tech marked the wrong box, crossed it out and checked the 3 year box and said it was the same medicine, I paid a couple bucks more, definitely worth it! I had a dog die of autoimmune hemolytic anemia, he was vaccinated annually as a therapy dog…there are other therapy dog programs that allow titers.

      • Jane Neely

        I need to find therapy dog that will allow a rabies
        titer

  • https://www.facebook.com/pages/My-petitions-I-signed/307662979417739?fref=nf Marion Friedl

    My friend Sandra lost two of her Maine Coon Cats (tomcats, Bär and Rocky) within 2 years due to vaccination tumors, both´ve only been about 6 years old, this is why I don´t let Gizzy and Thori vaccinate anymore and also didn´t let Angel Sisi vaccinate anymore, as pure indoor cats with a mummy who takes of her shoes in front of the appartment, who never has any contact to other (eventually feral/semi-feral) cats and who washes her hands well whenever she comes back inside, and if she´s only been at the garbage container or at the mailbox, the risk of them getting cancer from vaccinations´s much higher than the risk of getting any disease!!! By the way, what´s often said about humans, that vaccinations can cause autism in children, is absolute nonsense, there ain´t a single proof for this, but this is spread by people who´re absolutely against vaccinations for their kids and who send them to “meezles parties” etc. instead, which can end deadly…. Children, and also adult humans, need some obligatory vaccinations, like against tetanus, typhus, pertussis and – here in Germany – eventually also against “early summer meningo-encephalitis” that´s transmitted by ticks in some federal states…

    • AutismDadd

      You whine about cat deaths due to vaccines then support children’s vaccines?

      • sabelmouse

        yeah, what is that?

        • AutismDadd

          A confused individual

          • sabelmouse

            very!

          • http://stopk9torture.com Suki49

            Confused, or a plant

  • KV

    And who the fu** is Dr Robb ? Credentials please ! Also, please, links to all this so called studies and where they were all published in the 1st place ? Gee ! The same crap that goes around with the kids vaccines ! Unbelievable. I really feel sorry for all the people who are gullible enough to even believe this crap.

    • parkslopedog

      Why be so offended? Nobody has insulted you. You may have contempt for those who believe and do otherwise, but they have a right to their gullibility. Live and let live. Crap comes and crap goes.

      • KV

        Offended ? No hon, you got me all wrong. I think the only one offended here is you otherwise why would you even reply to me ? Don’t like my comment ? Ignore it. Like you said, live and let live.

    • SamanthaF

      This is not new or false news https://youtu.be/k44JvhUDW2Y

      • Metal Barbie

        A hearing that’s your “evidence” ? LMAO ! I guess you don’t vaccinate your children either. You believe what you want I believe what I want. I’m done with this. Have a nice life !

        • SamanthaF

          FYI, I’m not an anti-VAXer. My child was fully vaccinated including with the HPV vaccine. I just have a long history with the veterinary field and know that there is truth to over vaccinating with Rabies vaccine. I have never once said that dogs shouldn’t get a rabies vaccine, I am just stating that it is misused. You seem to read a lot more into posts than is there. Have a nice day.

          • Demaris Forsythe

            And just WHAT is your “history in the veterinary field,” dear? Are you a veterinarian?

        • Neo

          Go take a walk at a children’s hospital and look at all the sick children with cancers and auto immune disorders, not to mention all the children that have died!
          Oh same thing at a Vets.
          Go to a Vet and all the animals there have chronic skin conditions, allergies , cancers and auto immune disorders, I know , I have a rescued dog suffering from Vaccinosis.
          Been dumping money left and right on shit that doesn’t work ,and if it does temporarily, the side effects will kill him all brought on by Vaccines!
          Great business Pharma runs eh!

          • Metal Barbie

            Gee ! Are you for real ? Do you have any idea how many more children would be in a hospital if there is a polio outbreak or any other preventable outbreak ? The same goes for animals. I have 3 children, 4 dogs and 2 cats. No issues with vaccines here. Had pets all my life and never had an issue. Keep blaming pharma companies, yes they are bad, but not guilty for everything. You are really brainwashed and still have failed. showing me some independent scientific evidence to your claims. Do some critical thinking for once in your life ! You wanna put your loved ones at risk be my guest. I’m done with this stupidity.

          • AutismDadd

            Gross. I bet you let your filthy animals sleep in the bed with you.

          • Metal Barbie

            What ? You must be the silliest of them all.

          • AutismDadd

            So YES you do

          • Neo

            Speaking of stupidity and brainwashed!!
            You’re not very bright!
            When was the last time you had your syringe full of 30 plus shots, and not baby shots!
            The moment someone throws the word polio, you know they havent a clue about anything except for what Big Pharma brainwashed them with.
            You are a good little sheep Barbie, keep pumping your kids and animals with toxic junk that doesnt work and never has.
            I urge you to go test yourself and your kids to see what immunity you have from any vaccine.
            MAGIC…..you won’t have any!!!

          • Metal Barbie

            And the morons keep coming !

          • sabelmouse

            speak for yourself,wait, you are.

          • Metal Barbie

            And they keep coming. Happy trolling sweetie !

          • sabelmouse

            clever nim, an excuse for the abrasiveness that comes so naturally to many shills.

          • AutismDadd

            True. Brace yourself for the repulsive vulgarity.

          • Demaris Forsythe

            Oh, look, the asshole speaks again.

          • Ron Roy

            That’s you bent over and looking in a mirror. Get your facts straight!

          • AutismDadd

            Mental Barbie has the nerve to call others moron. My irony meter blew a fuse.

          • Metal Barbie

            But here you are arguing with a “mental” You should know better. And so far all of you anti-vaccers have not presented one shred of scientific evidence to support the claims of this article.

          • AutismDadd

            No but we know you’re a phony

          • Metal Barbie

            LMAO !! You’re really hilarious !

          • AutismDadd

            Quit sucking up

          • sabelmouse

            i think we knew this right away 🙂

          • Mike Stevens

            Watch out…!
            ..another one below (Sabelmouse)

          • Metal Barbie

            Yes ! I’ve seen. Like cockroaches. LOL ! Thanks for the warning and the up votes.

          • Ron Roy

            You aught to know you’re one of them.

          • Demaris Forsythe

            “And not baby shots?” Are you so stupid that you don’t know how vaccines are dosed? Oh, wait. It’s you. You have the brain power of Cheerios.

          • Mikayla Placke

            Please explain with sources and facts that vaccines don’t work. I’ll wait

          • joe

            Don’t hold your breathe, you will be waiting a long time.

          • AutismDadd

            Too lazy to research…of course.

          • Mikayla Placke

            No I just know that there are no fact based or peer reviewed studies to back up the claim that vaccines don’t work

          • AutismDadd

            No, just outbreaks, Merck being accused of faulty MMR, and 19 countries with adverse event compensation programs.

          • Bored Now

            I urge you to go test yourself and your kids to see what immunity you have from any vaccine. MAGIC…..you won’t have any!!!

            Interestingly I did that recently and out of Measles, Mumps, Rubella, Hepatitis A and Hepatitis B. The only one I didn’t have immunity to was Measles. Which is understandable since I only had one dose of the MMR.

            Glad I could correct your incorrect worldview. I’m sure, being the rational person you are. You’ll change your mind.

          • Neo

            Change my mind in believing that injecting toxic junk into my body is healthy for me and my children!
            Lol…your kidding right.
            Or maybe I should believe that Big Pharma has their best intentions for the people…..lol, that’s even more hilarious, considering they need a law to protect them from lawsuits from vaccine death and injury…thats another good one!

          • Bored Now

            Change my mind in believing

            Well what you claimed was that if someone who has been immunized is tested for immunity they would have none. Right here:

            go test yourself and your kids to see what immunity you have from any vaccine.MAGIC…..you won’t have any!!!

            ….and I did that very thing and for all but one of my vaccinations we tested that immunity held.

            So I assume since you’re a rational person you’ll realize that your position was wrong and change your mind.

            Right?

          • Demaris Forsythe

            Neo is a moron who never made it past high school. You’re right and he’s a dolt.

          • sabelmouse

            try homeopathy. i was lucky in that 1 of the vets in the practise i go to took it up and it saved our nearly dead cat who is now very well.

          • Demaris Forsythe

            Where are all these dying children and where is your evidence that vaccines had a thing to do with any of their diseases, you ass?

          • Demaris Forsythe

            Try watching a puppy die of distemper because it wasn’t vaccinated, you fucking idiot.

          • AutismDadd

            Speaking of distemper, ladies and germs here’s DEMENTIA!

          • joe

            Actually WOO WOO medicine made 50 billion dollars last year just in Australia. not bad for sugar water?

          • AutismDadd

            People can spend their $$ as they please pro-vac

    • Neo

      You have to be really braindead to believe Pharma has their best interests for anyone
      Vaccines are the destruction of our children and pets!

      • Metal Barbie

        LMAO ! Really ? Braindead ? LMAO ! Coming from someone like you that’s hilarious. Btw, I’ve mentioned pharmas my problem is with an article who was not a shred of evidence posted. Destruction of children and pets ? Overreacting much or just love to troll ? Really hilarious. Have a nice life hon !

      • Jane Neely

        True I am with you

  • parkslopedog

    I don’t understand why people get so fiercely defensive about giving their pets shots. If that’s what you want to do, then just do it and ignore articles to the contrary. Your pets are at your mercy to do whatever you want with them. Live and let live. I wish you all good health.

  • Tim Hammond

    The person that wrote this it s blithering idiot if he thinks vaccination is a ‘cash cow’ for veterinarians. We have no ‘cash cows’ in veterinary practice. Dr. Robb is a goofball quack that obviously didn’t pay attention in immunology class, if he ever had an immunology class. The number one side effect of vaccination in companion animals is old age….

    • Neo

      Please….vaccinations cause cancers, allergies , chronic skin and ear infections, Auto immune disorders.
      Vaccinosis!
      There is your cash cow.
      Why would it be any different than vaccines for children.

      • joe

        And what caused cancer before we had vaccination? What caused ear infections before we had vaccination?

        • AutismDadd

          Perhaps there was less and not so many of these RARE cancers we hear about in children.

        • sabelmouse

          we’ve had vaccinations for quite a while now. and childhood cancers were rare. ear infections were not as common either.

          • joe

            And where is your citation for that statement.

          • sabelmouse

            where are your’s for anything? and don’t you have the www? are you only allowed to access certain sites for work?

          • Ron Roy

            joe is part of the Science Based Medicine shill group. SBM a good example of an echo chamber. A group of shills all patting each other on the back waiting to collect their pharmaceutical company paychecks.

          • 655321

            How many of these A@# Clowns are actually the same person? It’s likely one person controls multiple profiles, though they are getting a little smarter and being more careful about using their other accounts to up-vote their own posts.

          • AutismDadd

            Imagine being a huge disappointment to your parents 3 times over if you were a shill like joe or Dementia?

          • 655321

            These paid sociopaths were probably abandoned as children. Would explain a few things.

          • AutismDadd

            Hadn’t thought of that. Probably from Romanian orphanages.

          • AutismDadd

            If they don’t pick up the quality of their shillin they will be abandoned by their Overlords.

          • 655321

            These trolls have the same mo as the trolls paid to push for gun control and the removal of the 2nd Amendment. They are not concerned with fact, truth or logic. Once they disarm the law abiding public, mandatory vaccines are coming, you can take that to the bank.

          • sabelmouse

            kafkaeaque is what it is, ditto the pseudoskeptical dino. luckily i am banned by both and can’t accidentally step into those hornet’s nests anymore.

          • AutismDadd

            If that group was made up of dwarfs joe would be Dopey

          • joe

            you made the claim, burden of proof is on you, you have been told this many times.

          • sabelmouse

            youse never do.

        • AutismDadd

          If you have information say so. All you do is post nonsense.

        • AutismDadd

          What evidence do you have concerning cancer and vaccination? What evidence that ear infections were less before vaccination?

      • Demaris Forsythe

        No, dear, there is no evidence that vaccines cause any of those conditions. None. If there were, you’d have posted links to sources. Really, Ronnie Boy, are you that stupid? Oh, wait.

    • AutismDadd

      So the indoctrination failed and Dr Robb isn’t allowed to exercise independent thinking based on his actual field experience. Talk about pushing dogma

    • sabelmouse

      sure you don’t.

    • AutismDadd

      What is your cash cow then?

  • AutismDadd

    Are we shocked? NOPE

  • Itsafuckigshitshow

    Can we put this on hold and look at all the shit we feed our pets first. How is it that the company owning meowmix and it’s affiliated brands hasn’t issued a single recall even though it’s pet food has been found to contain multiple deadly toxins on several occasions. Also, second hand smoke can cause issues. This article has 2 sources that haven’t provided enough solid scientific data that we can see publicly to be absolutely true. Was it the vacinne? The pet food or simply the fact that many domestic breeds are so inbred that their gene pool is fighting back, enviornmental issues or any other reason. Until someone shows us charts with solid broken down data, experiments and documentation. One paper isn’t enough. We’re these animals the same breed? Without any heath issues prior? Where there multiple batches of trials with different lots of the vaccines?

    • http://stopk9torture.com Suki49

      All vaccines are made from known poisons. There isn’t anything in them that produces health. You seem very willing to accept the “pet food is shit” hypothesis, and that is very true, too. But vaccines are the most ingrained propaganda pile of crap I have ever researched and written about. The true history of epidemics and vaccines are contained in books that the “medical mafia” has gone to great lengths to keep away from public awareness. One of those is actually titled “The Medical Mafia,” by Dr. G. Lanctot, who also wrote “Vaccination, The Silent Genocide.”

      What is amazing is that the brainwashing is so successful that people actually believe injections of pus from cows is what stopped smallpox. “The 1806 recipe for a rabies vaccine, for which a Mr. Kraus was awarded $1000, by the then rulers of New York territory, was alleged to have kept rabies out of New York for over twenty years. His formula is a matter of record and consisted of the ground-up jaw bone of an ass or dog, a piece of colt’s tongue and the green rust off a penny of George the First reign.” (The Poisoned Needle -1957)

      Now, in contrast to the 1806 recipe, the new, “modern” version contains mouse brains instead of the ground up jaw bone of an ass or a dog, and embryonic chickens instead of a piece of colt’s tongue. The green rust off a penny of George the First reign is replaced with aluminum, mercury, cadmium, and/or lead. But to make it sound more sophisticated, the mouse brains are called “IMB,” the chicken embryos are called GAD65, and the neurotoxic metals are identified as themselves by various names, like “thimerosal” “aluminum hydroxide.”

      Vaccine-Induced Disease Epidemic Outbreaks
      http://www.rense.com/general87/indu.htm

      • Mikayla Placke

        Come talk to me when you see a sick puppy die of parvo. Come talk to me when you see a dog suffer from distemper. Come see me when you watch a dog die of kidney failure because it got Lyme disease. Come see me when a family with little kids has to put down their 5 year old dog because his liver is failing because of lepto. All preventable because of VACCINES

        • parkslopedog

          I really don’t understand how coming to talk to you or coming to see you will help anybody. Were those your dogs of whom you speak, or are they theoretical dogs?

          • Mikayla Placke

            All real dogs. It’s called being in the Veterinary field. We see it all the time. Dogs dying from preventable diseases because owners are to ignorant or believe crap articles like this one

        • AutismDadd

          I’ve read parvo was due to vaccination. Imagine that, a vaccine for a vaccine caused illness. Can you say shingles?

          • Mikayla Placke

            No parvo is not caused by vaccines.

          • AutismDadd

            Some say it is, so we have a tie.

    • AutismDadd

      There is a lawsuit suing dog food maker Purina for Beneful. It killed dogs. How a company could produce a food product that kills is strange.

  • Itsafuckigshitshow

    This is just a fake news site

  • Karen Jorgensen Reynolds

    This is extremely alarming to a pet owner. Pets are our family, our children. How do we know who to trust anymore? This to me is devastating news because we want to take the best care of our pets and trust the Drama we choose for them

  • Tracey

    There is some truth to this and I am now devastated to know I was right , my dog got a lump on the exact spot that she received her shots, they said it was a cyst and removed it claiming the two were in no way related. A little over a year later I had to put her down breaking my heart. She developed cancer, inside, under the place that the shot had been given, and it effected her breathing. It was to far along to do anything about it. She was 13 and had been by my side since she was 2 months old.

    • parkslopedog

      Tracey, I’m so sorry about your girl.

  • Jill Jenkins

    Have known this for more than 35 years.Necessary vaccines should never be given together Rabies should be given alone and well apart from other vaccines. A lot of research was done by Dr Jean Dodds, who has established a vaccine protocol for dogs. Google her name for some educational topics.

  • https://www.facebook.com/ModernMedicalQuackery WatchmanForTruth

    Poor defenseless innocent animals, victimized by ignorant clueless people who follow the criminal medical system that’s totally out of control murdering millions of people, children, babies and animals worldwide for profits. fb page: Modern Medical Quackery, Google+

  • Neo

    Why would it be any different for animals.
    I see it all the time time at a vets when I take my rescued dog that’s suffers from vaccinosis.
    All the animals there all suffer from the same conditions.
    Auto immune disorders, nasty allergies, chronic skin conditions , chewing themselves to death, cancers and so on!
    Same with children, there is no coincidence, vaccines destroy lives forever!!

    • Demaris Forsythe

      Oh, bullshit. Your dog isn’t suffering from vaccinosis, you lying little shit.

      • Ron Roy

        Look who’s talking Demerit who has made a career of lying.

      • AutismDadd

        Are you up on your distemper shot Dementia?

        • Mikayla Placke

          The fact that you think distemper is for temper shows me how uneducated you are

          • AutismDadd

            How bout you, are you up on it too?

    • Mikayla Placke

      You are are complete moron if you think “vaccinosis” is a thing. It’s not. And all those issues you mention can all be due to go ethics because people are money hungry and want to breed breed breed. So until you get your Veterinary education I’d stop spreading lies

  • AutismDadd

    Dog autism from over vaccinating. But it couldn’t happen to babies?

  • cher2356

    I’m just gonna throw this out there for what its,worth! I had my own vet tell me this, vaccinate your pet once when it’s small, other than that they don’t need It! I’ve given my dogs 3 each, 3 years,apart and I won’t do it again!! They are inside dogs and the only thing they get is flea and tick meds, which to me is poison enough but there’s no way to control them otherwise. I keep them bathed in oatmeal soap for there skin and only do the flea meds twice a year. J/s

    • parkslopedog

      Please don’t use the spot-on flea & tick meds. They are neurotoxins which use your dog’s circulatory system to deliver the poison, essentially using the dog’s poisoned blood to kill the pests when they bite. Meanwhile the toxin is circulating throughout the dog’s body and all his organs. I know of dogs who have suddenly gone blind; one developed myasthenia gravis, one had heart cancer. There are other methods of controlling flea/ticks. I’ve made my own spray from various essential oils (pennyroyal, neem, d-limoneme, citronella); formulas are available on the internet. You can also get diatomaceous earth (pulverized sea shell) to dust their fur and smother the fleas/ticks. Internally, you can add brewer’s yeast and raw garlic to their food (makes their smell unpalatable to the insects). If your dogs are inside dogs, it’s not necessary to bathe them often. A soppy sponge bath and foot bath with vinegar and water will keep their skin healthy and good-smelling. I also suggest reading Dr. Martin Goldstein’s book on animal care and health. Good luck.

      • cher2356

        Thank you for your feedback. No, I have never used spot-flea meds…too toxic! I have used comfort is in the past and I’m gonna try Bravetto chews 5his summer, a little expensive but like I said, they stay inside most of the time (95) % of the time so I’m pretty picky about what I give them:). I’ll have to try the vinegar bath, one of my baby’s has such sensitive skin so I don’t bathe them often and don’t use harsh chemicals on them. I’ll check out his book…thanks again.

      • from THE 3rd PATCH

        Brewers yeast tablets have always worked for us. My dogs were in the forest every day. They slurp them down also. No bad breath.

        • parkslopedog

          I read somewhere that you could use brewer’s yeast powder to dust your pets instead of toxic flea powders. The most important thing is to vacuum everyday where your pet sleeps or lies around because the fleas are hiding in the bedding/rugs and dropping their eggs.

          • from THE 3rd PATCH

            “parkslopedog” … never used B-yeast “on” the dogs. Never had to.
            I am not chemo phobic ( only kinda ) but our Vet & I talked in length about all this “stuff”. He & I think that the FOREIGN MANUFACTURERS that are employed by OUR American companies … “do” have resentment to American-0’s and many “product problems” come from that attitude. ie Treats, powders, vitamins etc etc
            .
            Our animals were working-dogs .. but one ( ha ha ) Graduated to In-The-House STATUS. Here is something to think about.
            .
            We rent with a lousy foreign Landlord (!) and live in dry dry COLORADO.
            .
            40 ounce garden sprayer ( its small )
            2 -3 ounces of rubbing alcohol
            2-3 “DROPS” of Eucalyptus Oil ( *4 or 5 “DROPS” is “PHEW” )
            1 or 2 “DROPS” of NON-chlorine DISH SOAP (REAL BUG KILLER !!)
            Shake the living crap out of the mix (all through the process)
            …… spray all carpet ( under bed, sofa, tables, chairs etc etc)
            .
            * We have both new & antique furniture .. don’t have a problem with spotting, but we are careful. If you use bottled water, all the better.
            ** “ALL” bugs + dust mites HATE IT ! It will “eliminate” them.
            *** Really helps the sinuses !
            NOPE!!! NO bed bugs in this house ! But… there “IS” a National INFESTATION in the United States. We put down comforter / pillows in a hot dryer weekly WITH 2 – 4 DROPS of Eucalyptus Oil on them.
            .
            TRY IT (smiling (ha) Smart-Guy )
            .
            I appreciate your consideration for you dog(s)
            .

          • parkslopedog

            Your spray sounds good. I do the same but also add d-limoneme, pennyroyal, and neem. I have rescued pit-mixes and they are all inside dogs but go out for walks. The last time I had a flea problem was when I rescued a street dog and she was infested. I’m in NYC so I only spray when the season is particularly dry and hot.

            The bad treats and food usually come from China. They don’t care about dogs and cats–they torture them before slaughtering for meat, so why should they care what they put their edibles? A few years back, some Chinese baby food was found with melamine and poisoned their own people. That’s why I never eat food produced in China.

          • from THE 3rd PATCH

            Pakistan was another country “treats” were manufactured.
            .
            Last time we had a “problem” was at the Massachusetts / Vermont state line. The ticks were unbelievable ! I worked in that country for decades … in the “bush” … NEVER had a tick on me OR the dog.
            .
            Ahhhh yes … that’s right … Massachusetts stopped and refused to “spray” !
            Even though many of my types were trying to deal with “Lyme Disease”.
            ** A Veterinarian from Albany, New York (close to us, then) was the one that discovered “Lyme” since his Wife contracted the disease and (I think ) it was fatal for her.
            .
            Had a CO-worker that contracted it …. NOT GOOD !
            .
            “spraying” is not as terrible as Folks think … the Spray People just need to be
            …… PROFESSIONALS !
            .

  • Bj Anderson

    Please add references to the actual peer-reviewed scientific studies so that we can check the facts and think critically. None of these hyperlinks actually lead to a peer-reviewed study. I did dig down to one study that the author claims proves ‘vaccines can even make your dog autistic”. The study concluded no such thing. One thing to keep in mind at all times when reviewing scientific studies: correlation does not equal causation.

  • AutismDadd

    So a DUH MOMENT…

    • Ron Roy

      All his moments are DUH MOMENTS.

      • AutismDadd

        Can’t deny facts can we?

  • PaulC

    And this “new study published by a U.S. Veterinary journal” you highlight in your opening para – perhaps you could provide
    the reference?

  • Verna Lang

    Good try Baxter Dimitry. You have fooled the gullible. First you neglected to provide a link to the new study. A search on Google scholar turned up nothing. Maybe that’s why there is no link. Or does your definition of new date back previous to 2016?
    Then there is this real howler of a mistake. I clicked on your link to “Vaccines can even make your dog autistic.” The actual title of the piece was Can Vaccinations Cause Autism in Dogs? The author was debunking the idea that vaccines cause dog autism, if it even exists. Here is a quote from your link:

    Furthermore many of these symptoms are ambiguous, in much the same way that a cough can be a symptom of tuberculosis, pneumonia, congestive heart disease, or a simple cold. Emphasizing the difficulty in determining what autism might look like in a dog Brooklyn veterinarian Stephanie Liff said “We’ve never diagnosed autism in a dog. I don’t think you could.”
    Even if we accept the fact that canine autism exists, the linkage between vaccination and autism has been scientifically rejected.

    You really should give an article you link a quick scan for content before you include it in an article if you even want to pretend to be credible.

  • Lara Runger

    would like the reference info on the study that is cited plse-also plse see writings by Drs. Jean Dodds and Ron Schultz for more info about vaccine efficacy and duration of immunity

  • Neo

    Why would it be any differant.
    I see it all the time with animals just like with children.
    No coincidence what so ever.
    Vaccines destroy lives not save!

  • http://vaccinepapers.org/ Vaccine Papers

    Where is the study? No link provided.

    This article references a “study” in the title, but then does not cite anything specific.

    It is clickbait garbage. Junk. With content this bad, its no wonder people think vaccine activists are fools.

    • Bored Now

      Where is the study?

      I suspect there isn’t one. What these figure might be from is a survey by a blog called “Canine Health Concern”.

      its no wonder people think vaccine activists are fools.

      There’s no small irony VP that, assuming these folk aren’t trying to be deliberately deceptive. They’re making the same broad class of error you have made on several occasions (under the same assumption). They are presuming they know more than they do. They read survey results and presume that they know enough about the issues surrounding such a survey that they consider the results meaningful.

      Which is why you can only come out and deal with criticism in the real(er) world in short periods before retreating to your hidey-hole. 🙂

      • http://vaccinepapers.org/ Vaccine Papers

        The pro-vaccine frequently claim articles on the vaccinepapers website are wrong, but then do not provide specific reasons why, and do not cite scientific studies.

        So, what are the SPECIFIC errors you allege? Be specific and cite scientific studies.

        Scientist Abe attempted to prove that my article on aluminum adjuvant kinetics is wrong, but he failed miserably. He misquoted scientific studies, made false claims, and demonstrated his ignorance.

        http://vaccinepapers.org/rebuttal-to-the-bbb-scientist/

        • Bored Now

          but then do not provide specific reasons why.

          …and frequently people don’t bother attempting to explain things to you more than two or three times.

          and do not cite scientific studies.

          …and frequently they do and these get marginalized or misinterpreted by you. Sometimes however your disability is almost purely intellectual or educational in nature. You simply read something the wrong way or make an incorrect assumption or assign the wrong statistical weighting to some pet idea of yours. In those cases, the number of studies produced is largely irrelevant.

          So, what are the SPECIFIC errors you allege?

          Well I’ve just mentioned a few but having seen a significant sample of your rhetoric style. Your move at this point is to dismiss all this and assume that you are correct. Rather than investigate.

          See VP, part of the thing holding you back from being a productive member of any community is your inability to self-critique. To find or be eager to find the errors in your own reasoning.

          • Peter Harris

            It seems like you are totally bereft of an answer, so to disguise your ignorance, and lack of ability to answer directly, you bluff your way through with a lot of disingenuous nonsense.

          • Bored Now

            Actually what I provided is an answer. No less vague than the portion of text I was responding to, if you think about it.

          • Peter Harris

            You provided an answer? Where?

            VP was asking for some specific examples, and all you can manage is to just blurt out irrelevant ad hominem/non-sequiturs.

            Example:

            “Sometimes however your disability is almost purely intellectual or educational in nature.”

          • Bored Now

            VP was asking for some specific examples

            Actually he said specific errors not specific examples nor examples of specific errors and the following is in fact a list of specific errors.

            VP sometimes believes someone is without a reason when actually VP is simply unable to identify/understand someones reason
            VP sometimes claims people don’t produce studies when they actually do but VP marginalizes or ignores them
            VP sometimes makes incorrect assumptions
            VP sometimes makes incorrect statistical weightings
            VP sometimes misreads studies or the results from other online sources.

            Example:

            “Sometimes however your disability is almost purely intellectual or educational in nature.”

            That’s neither an ad hominem nor a non-sequitur. We are discussing as VP’s intellectual and educational shortcomings are relevant to the work produced by VP. Sorry.

          • Peter Harris

            “Actually he said specific errors not specific examples nor examples of specific errors and the following is in fact a list of specific errors.”

            This is just how I thought you would respond, by using a pedantic argument around semantics to further obfuscate.

            “That’s neither an ad hominem nor a non-sequitur. We are discussing various things which cause VP to make errors. Thus the intellectual and educational shortcomings of VP are relevant to this topic.”

            Perhaps you should look up the true meaning of non sequitur and ad hominem.

            In any event, who are you to judge his intellectual knowledge on this subject?

            And what about your intellectual shortcomings?

          • Bored Now

            using a pedantic argument around semantics

            All I did was provide exactly what VP asked for. That’s hardly a pedantic argument. Not to mention that VP is free to as for examples later.

            Perhaps you should look up the true meaning of non sequitur and ad hominem.

            Interesting that you are the one making the vague claim here. Perhaps you can supply a formal syllogism demonstrating how my statements are an ad hominem….but I suspect you can’t.

            In any event, who are you to judge his intellectual and educational knowledge on this subject?

            Based on my interactions with the exceptionally-dim VP.

          • Peter Harris

            “Based on my interactions with the exceptionally-dim VP.”

            You just said 20 minutes ago, you don’t indulge in ad hominem and non-sequiturs.

            But Keep digging that hole, so it’s big enough for you to fill in.

          • Bored Now

            You just said 20 minutes ago, you don’t indulge in ad hominem and non-sequiturs.

            True to form, this is neither. You asked how I can judge VP. I can do that based on my experiences with VP. So that’s not a non-sequitur. It’s also not an ad homiem fallacy since my statement that VP is dim. Is not an argument. 🙂

          • Peter Harris

            Calling someone dim, is just your subjective evaluation, and you lose the argument…which you’re doing now.

          • Bored Now

            Calling someone dim isn’t necessarily a ad hominem — since an ad hominem is an argument and describing someone as stupid isn’t necessarily an argument. Similarly it’s not a non-sequitur, since we are discussing VP’s work and abilities.

            Despite learning some of the names of the logical fallacies (but not plurium interrogationum apparently) you can’t seem to make a syllogism defending your point.

          • Peter Harris

            Again, try and keep digging, you’ll eventually reach the intellectual treasure chest.

          • Bored Now

            Again, calling someone “dim” isn’t necessarily an argument. Ergo it isn’t necessarily an ad hominem. Let me know what part of that you find confusing.

          • Peter Harris

            As I said, this is all you got left in the argument, rather than the subject at hand, which is the pros and cons of vaccines.

          • Bored Now

            this is all you got left in the argument,

            I think your pronouns are kind of mixed up. You have been claiming in post after post that I’ve made an ad hominem argument. Now you realize you’re wrong and you want to pretend that’s not important anymore?

            The goalpost moving doesn’t really work when I’m simply responding to what you say.

            the subject at hand, which is the pros and cons of vaccines.

            That’s not the subject at hand. This entire thread came out of my comment about the irony that VP couldn’t see how they make the same errors as the author of the article. Even VP’s comment wasn’t about the pros and cons of vaccines. VP was complaining that the author of the article didn’t cite the study.

          • Peter Harris

            Yep, as I said, just more flim-flam in the hope to obfuscate further.

            You still can’t discuss the topic?

          • Bored Now

            I have been discussing the topic at hand and any paths from there were entirely at your request.

          • Peter Harris

            You really are deluded, because you’ve been doning everything, except discuss the topic.

            How many meaningless off topic words have you tapped out on your computer by now? I telly around 500-600.

          • Bored Now

            you’ve been doing everything, except discuss the topic.

            The topic at hand was my responding to VP. Sorry. 🙂 All this is, is goalpost shifting. Nice try. 🙂

          • Peter Harris

            You should go back and read the thread of our conversations, and see who’s been “goal shifting.”

          • Bored Now

            You. Thanks. 🙂

          • Peter Harris

            “Interesting that you are the one making the vague claim here. Perhaps you can supply a formal syllogism demonstrating how my statements are an ad hominem….but I suspect you can’t.”

            Too easy, it’s right there at the bottom of the same post…

            “Based on my interactions with the exceptionally-dim VP.”

            Oops.

          • Bored Now

            Too easy, it’s right there at the bottom of the same post…

            That’s not a formal syllogism. You want something more like

            i) Socrates is a man
            ii) All men are mortal
            iii) Therefore Socrates is mortal.

            …and as explained earlier calling VP dim — is not an argument. It’s an assertion. Sorry.

          • Peter Harris

            And it’s not ad hominem?

            By the way, you’re sounding awfully like a disciple of Stefan Molyneux.

          • Bored Now

            And it’s not ad hominem?

            …an ad hominem is an invalid logical argument, a logical argument has at least a major premise, a minor premise and a conclusion.

            You have got this conversation way off topic

            Uh I’m just responding to (and pointing out the errors in) the questions you ask and the statements you make. So it’s pretty hard for ME to be the person taking things off topic…since you are supplying the topics. 🙂

            in order to avoid direct engagement in the topic

            How so? I’ve responded to just about everything you’ve either asked or posted to me. So whatever “topic” you think is being deliberately avoided. You need only mention it clearly.

            Unless, you know that would take away your excuse to claim that I’m somehow avoiding the topic.

          • Peter Harris

            “Unless, you know that would take away your excuse to claim that I’m somehow avoiding the topic.”

            And hypocritically, that’s exactly what you are doing.

            Do you want to get back to the subject, regarding the over vaccination of pets that could lead to cancer?

            I won’t be holding my breath.

          • Bored Now

            And hypocritically, that’s exactly what you are doing.

            Nope. VP made a post asking about the location of the study and harshly criticizing the author. I responded to it providing the information and commenting that they are guilty of the same error.

            That was the topic at hand, in case you missed it.

            Do you want to get back to the subject, regarding the over vaccination of pets that could lead to cancer?

            If that was the subject then I’d be happy to respond. However it wasn’t. Even if you want to claim that disqus comments should never — under pain of death — discuss anything other than the article. The article appears to claim that some specific study exists but the only one it directly references as a study is this thing by Canine Health Concern.

          • Peter Harris

            Yep, more obfuscation.

          • Bored Now

            I’m simply describing exactly what happened. VP made a post about the location of the study and criticized the author. I replied. That’s the subject at-hand.

          • Peter Harris

            Sure, if you’ve convinced yourself.

          • Bored Now

            VP says pretty much exactly what I say they did:

            Where is the study? No link provided.

            This article references a “study” in the title, but then does not cite anything specific.

            It is clickbait garbage. Junk. With content this bad, its no wonder people think vaccine activists are fools.

          • Peter Harris

            With one bold exception.

          • Bored Now

            I said VP made a post about the location of the study….
            VP says:

            Where is the study?

            I say VP criticizes the author

            It is clickbait garbage. Junk. With content this bad, its no wonder people think vaccine activists are fools.

            QED.

          • Peter Harris

            Sure, and in that sense, vaccine papers is correct, it is clickbait in the truest sense of phrase.

            And by the way, no one is impressed with your copy and paste Latin, except yourself of course.

          • Bored Now

            and in that sense, vaccine papers is correct,

            ….and in that sense I’m correct in what I said about VP and my response to VP. So my statement

            VP made a post asking about the location of the study and harshly criticizing the author. I responded to it providing the information and commenting that they are guilty of the same error.

            Is accurate.

            your copy and paste Latin,

            Are you claiming that you would need to copy and paste “QED”? That you couldn’t recite it from memory?

          • Peter Harris

            Yep, just confirming what I’ve been saying.

          • Bored Now

            So you agree that my statement about VP is accurate. 🙂

          • Peter Harris

            No, I think you have a bias towards not entertaining the idea that vaccines could be harmful.

          • Bored Now

            The statement about VP that I’m referring do isn’t about vaccines being harmful or not. So please check the thread and respond correctly.

          • Peter Harris

            You’ve tangled yourself up is So many misdirection knots, your grammar is slipping.

          • Bored Now

            No misdirection. I said:

            VP made a post asking about the location of the study and harshly criticizing the author. I responded to it providing the information and commenting that they are guilty of the same error.

            You claimed there was some kind of exception to this. I pointed out what VP said, then I pointed out what I said in response.

          • Peter Harris

            Not at all.

          • Bored Now

            Well what I just posted is accurate and you, as usual can’t point out a problem. Thanks.

          • Peter Harris

            I’ve been pointing out all along, about your off-topic nonsense, and how you want to tie this discussion up in knots.

          • Bored Now

            You can’t point out what’s wrong with my argument that I haven’t been talking about the topic at hand.

            how you want to tie this discussion up in knots

            As posts only reflect your statements. The only person who can be doing this is you. 🙂

          • Peter Harris

            This response is proof.

          • Bored Now

            That all you want is to tie things in knots? Ok.

          • Peter Harris

            Misdirection number 21.

          • Bored Now

            Nope, it’s just pointing out that you are the person driving this conversation (such as your desire to create different threads) is you. 🙂

          • Peter Harris

            Misdirection number 29.

          • Peter Harris

            “Unsurprisingly, domestic cats and dogs have never suffered as many health problems as they do now.”

            Care to comment?

          • Bored Now

            How is this established to be true? What variables would we need to control to make such a comparison useful?

          • Peter Harris

            Misdirection number 20.

          • Bored Now

            Nope, it’s clear criteria which would make the statement useful which the article doesn’t have.

          • Peter Harris

            Misdirection number 28.

          • Peter Harris

            You have got this conversation way off topic, which is I think a deliberate ploy, of you pro vaccinating misanthropes, in order to avoid direct engagement in the topic, and not embarrass yourself with your lack of said knowledge.

          • http://vaccinepapers.org/ Vaccine Papers

            Thats perfectly vague and nonspecific.

            Number of studies cited is especially relevant when it is ZERO. Vaccine promoters cite zero studies demonstrating safety of aluminum adjuvant.

            Do you have any citations demonstrating the long term or neurological safety of aluminum adjuvant? In infants? Animals or humans?

            What specific questions have I failed to investigate? What are the specific reasoning errors you have found in VP content?

            Your comment is a perfect example of what I described above: criticisms so vague and nonspecific that a rebuttal is impossible.

          • Bored Now

            Thats perfectly vague and nonspecific.

            Really? It’s perfectly vague as in you have no possible clue what kind of behavior results from an “incorrect assumption”? It would be identical to my typing “ldskfjslkfjdslk”? So you’re kind of lying here.

            What are the specific reasoning errors you have found in VP content?

            A rather obvious one is that you have problems interpreting studies. For example when you read Gadad et al you misunderstood the disease model.

            Your comment is a perfect example of

            you rushing to dismiss. I really must thank you for illustrating this so well and so clearly. Perhaps it won’t be long before you go back into hiding.

            a rebuttal is impossible.

            Maybe VP, just maybe this is not yet the point of the conversation where a rebuttal is warranted. Conversations tend to move from the general to the specific. I’d expect you to have encountered this if you have any social experiences at all.

            Also it’s worth noting that you jump immediately to “rebuttal” instead of “correction”. Which rather supports my position that you lack the ability to self-critique. So thanks for that.

          • Peter Harris

            “So thanks for that.”

            Oh I see, you use the same modus operandi on everybody do you?
            Trying to create the perception that you are an intellectual on this subject.
            But through all your nonsense and prolix, you’re just I smug nobody.

          • Bored Now

            Trying to create the perception that you are an intellectual on this subject.

            So thanking them is making me look intellectual…how?

          • Peter Harris

            For one, trying to look intellectually important with your copy and paste Latin.

          • Bored Now

            You seem really hung up on this Latin thing. Some kind of insecurity of yours I guess. QED is a pretty common phrase to use in math as well as formal logic and the Latin names of logical fallacies are useful because there tend to be fewer for a single fallacy. So they’re less ambiguous.

          • Peter Harris

            I’m hung up on your copy and paste Latin? Hahaha

          • Bored Now

            Well I’m not the one constantly whinging about my entirely normal use of Latin. So….

          • Peter Harris

            How can I be normal?

          • Bored Now

            I tend to think of you as extraordinary.

          • Peter Harris

            Misdirection number 43.

            I’m so enjoying this, because it’s a remarkable insight into a “dim” intellectuals mindset.

          • Peter Harris

            “criticisms so vague and nonspecific that a rebuttal is impossible.”

            Yes, and it makes me wonder sometimes, whether it’s a deliberate tactic to obfuscate, which has two purposes.
            To perpetually argue with you hoping that you will tire of the issue, and the fact that they themselves, are intellectual light weights on this issue, and they are desperately and constantly trying to hide that fact.

          • http://vaccinepapers.org/ Vaccine Papers

            I believe its mostly the latter. They have poor analytical skills.

            But also they are lazy. They beleive laziness is acceptable because their belief in vaccine safety is in alignment with medical orthodoxy. Absolute confidence in vaccine safety makes them uninterested in the detailed steps and arguments required to reach the conclusion that vaccines are safe. They “know” the final answer, so why bother with the hard and messy process of proving it?

            Its a big bullshit story, easily debunked, but the vaccine promoters fall for it completely because they worship authority.

          • Peter Harris

            And the other thing that is starkly obvious to me, is their hypocrisy.
            They’ll call you out, the second they don’t think you’re down the line, and your arguments are not airtight, but they’re all over the place, when it comes to their nonsensical Flim Flam.
            As we say in Australia, they are all over the place like a dogs breakfast.

          • Peter Harris

            Yes.
            I think a good example of that is bored now.
            Check out his masterful display of obfuscation on this thread.
            He tried everything, from trying to sound like an authoritarian and intellectual with the use of Latin, to quoting celebrities.

          • Peter Harris

            “Your comment is a perfect example of what I described above: criticisms so vague and nonspecific that a rebuttal is impossible.”

            Yep, VP has nailed it…
            You are not the full quid, despite your attempts to portray yourself as someone other.

          • Bored Now

            your attempts to portray yourself as someone other.

            Oh? What do you imagine I’m attempting to portray myself as?

          • Peter Harris

            Well let’s start with pseudo intellectual…
            Or perhaps, serial avoider.

          • Bored Now

            So I’m attempting to portray myself as someone who is pseudo-intellectual? Do you ever actually read what you write?

          • Peter Harris

            For once you agree with me, you are admitting that you are some type of Pseudo intellectual.

          • Bored Now

            No, I’m just pointing out that I asked you “What do you think I’m TRYING to portray myself as?” and you said a “Pseudo-intellectual”. Which seems contradictory to what you’ve said in the past.

          • Peter Harris

            So let’s see, let’s count the ways Mr Dim obfuscates, deliberately confuses, misdirects and in the process, makes himself look utterly foolish.

            1. You claim to have some knowledge of vaccines, but you totally avoid Vaccines papers specific questions regarding your knowledge.

            2. You also make general comments about medicine and medical issues, but you cannot backup any of your “opinions” with fact.

            And of course 3, you like to intimidate people with your pseudo-intellectual persona, but as we expose you more, you’re nothing but a dilettante.

          • Peter Harris

            “Do you have any citations demonstrating the long term or neurological safety of aluminum adjuvant? In infants? Animals or humans?”

            We are all still waiting with bated breath.

          • Bored Now

            demonstrating the long term

            Define long term.

            We are all

            It’s always cute when someone likes to pluralize their terms to put weight into a statement that has none. 🙂

            Even if I didn’t there’s little in the way of high-quality statistical data showing any harm from aluminum adjuvants despite people trying pretty hard to find some.

          • Peter Harris

            True to form, you want to talk about grammar and everything else, except answer the question.

          • Bored Now

            Actually I did, “it’s unnecessary to need that to hold this particular belief” is an answer.

          • Peter Harris

            Another case of do as I say, not do as I do.

            When anybody puts forward a “belief” as you call it, you ask for factual proof.

          • Bored Now

            “factual proof” I love the use of adjectives there. Personally I just use the term “evidence”.

          • Peter Harris

            So let’s see, let’s count the ways Mr Dim obfuscates, deliberately confuses, misdirects and in the process, makes himself look utterly foolish..

            1. You claim to have some knowledge of vaccines, but you totally avoid Vaccines papers specific questions regarding your knowledge.

            2. You also make general comments about medicine and medical issues, but you cannot backup any of your “opinions” with fact.

            And of course 3, you like to intimidate people with your pseudo-intellectual persona, but as we expose you more, you’re nothing but a dilettante.

          • Peter Harris

            “See VP, part of the thing holding you back from being a productive member of any community is your inability to self-critique. To find or be eager to find the errors in your own reasoning.”

            Hilarious.

            “You see a lot, doctor. But can you point that high-powered perception at yourself?”

            Clarice Starling.

          • Bored Now

            Well what I say is the truth. VP is virtually useless in any community because of the lack of self-critique.

          • Peter Harris

            The truth as you call it, requires some factual evidence, something, that you cannot produce.

            And you cannot self-critique? That’s hilarious.

          • Bored Now

            The truth as you call it, requires some factual evidence

            No, convincing a rational person of the truth requires evidence. The truth can still be true without evidence.

          • Peter Harris

            hahaha.

            How are you going to extricate yourself from all these knots?

          • Bored Now

            There’s no knots. Just the assertion that the truth in this case isn’t purely subjective. Thanks.

          • Peter Harris

            While you’ve been dribbling over yourself, you could still not find the time to answer vaccine papers?

          • Bored Now

            you could still not find the time to answer vaccine papers?

            The answer the to “what are the SPECIFIC errors” is right there in the text…right after I quote VP. If there’s some word or phrase you don’t understand feel free to ask a question. Thanks.

          • Peter Harris

            Vaccine papers and I, would like to see you at least, attempt some semblance of an answer.

          • Bored Now

            Vaccine papers and I

            Are you two a couple now? I was always hoping that VP would find someone.

            some semblance of an answer.

            If there’s some specific word or phrase you don’t understand feel free to ask a question. Otherwise my answer (and further answers) are as stated. Thanks. 🙂

          • Peter Harris

            “See VP, part of the thing holding you back from being a productive member of any community is your inability to self-critique. To find or be eager to find the errors in your own reasoning.”

            Now that is the pot calling the kettle black!

          • Bored Now

            Not really. Perhaps you haven’t read enough of VP’s work to see how ludicrous it is. Did you read his bit on Gadad et al?

          • Peter Harris

            Yep, more pot.

          • Bored Now

            Guess you didn’t read his bit on Gadad et al…

          • Peter Harris

            Yes, and your point is?
            Oh, you want me to answer it for you?

          • Bored Now

            Then you didn’t notice how VP flubbed the disease model?

          • Peter Harris

            Really? Can you point it out?

          • Bored Now

            Sure, VP’s claim is that the Gadad study is deliberately underpowered when looking at PK cells. However for a normal distribution it’s sufficiently powered. Which is why the authors used a methodology with a normal PDF. My eleven year old could teach VP statistics.

          • Peter Harris

            You poor deluded fool, satistics are just a small way of describing something in a technical sense, it doesn’t deal with the actual subject matter in a holistic sense.

          • Bored Now

            Yawn. We are talking about VP’s post on Gadad et al. A significant part of that VP’s assertion that it’s deliberately underpowered. Got that? Are you with me so far? Saying something is “deliberately underpowered” is a statistical argument. So VP is talking about statistics. Ergo the refutation is going to be about statistics. Thus your ignorant screed is irrelevant. The actual subject we are discussion is VP’s statistical claim.

            To continue: VP’s entire point there depends on showing that the study is not just underpowered but deliberately so. Meaning that they are making the same assumptions about the disease that VP is. However it’s rather clear from the tools chosen, the intro to the paper and just the general way science is done. That they are assuming that PK cell counts are normally distributed and that if vaccination causes autism or autism like features then it’s a Genetics + Environment effect. i.e. vaccines are enhancing an genetic trait causing PK count to drop below a threshold which the paper asserts is correlated with autism (there is some criticism here IIRC). Yet when VP themselves does the power calculation it shows to be adequate (but not great!). VP then takes that result and applies a transform to get their preferred result. This is altering the disease model.

            VP, even when questioned on the subject can’t justify that the writers were making this assumption. That’s not to say VP doesn’t think the assumption is justified. However VP’s THESIS isn’t just that the result is incorrect but that the paper is deliberately underpowered.

            VP is simply too ignorant to see this. Since VP’s claim is that they examine just the scientific papers. It’s hard to do that without actually understanding statistics. Since virtually all conclusions in scientific papers of this sort depend on statistics.

          • Peter Harris

            An exhaustive waste of 10 minutes, randomly tapping out nonsense on the keypad, and yet again, no evidence of you understanding the topic.

          • Bored Now

            That would take you ten minutes to type? It took me about five. Guess you need to practice.

            no evidence of you understanding the topic.

            Well the topic is VP flubbing the disease model in his article about Gadad et al and I showed that pretty clearly. So perhaps you’re talking about some topic in your imagination.

            Thanks. 🙂

          • Peter Harris

            I’ve just thought of an American term, you are filibustering aren’t you.

          • Bored Now

            No, I’m just offering to explain things to you. Point out the word or phrase you don’t understand and I’ll do my best to put it in terms you can comprehend.

          • Peter Harris

            I’ve just given you a word, now go to work on it.

          • Bored Now

            One in my post. Thanks.

          • Peter Harris

            Hey, you talking to me?

          • Bored Now

            Yep. When I said “a word or phrase” the context is “one that I used in my post”. Thanks.

          • Peter Harris

            How about “non-specific”, your trademark.

          • Bored Now

            Didn’t use that word in the post we are discussing either. 🙂

          • Peter Harris

            Is there an actual answer amongst that pile of circulatory nonsense?

          • Bored Now

            If there’s a word or phrase you don’t understand. Feel free to ask a question. I’m happy to help you understand within your capabilities.

          • Peter Harris

            Ok, can you explain the word Obfuscate? hahaha

          • Bored Now

            A word or phrase in my posting. Thanks. 🙂

          • Peter Harris

            Huh?

          • Bored Now

            Read it again. 🙂

          • Peter Harris

            Read what again?

          • Peter Harris

            So let’s recap here, of what we know about Bogan Now…

            He has no idea of scientific reason, medicine and disease processes.

            He certainly is clueless about alternative methods of medicine and wellbeing.

            He has a raging inferiority complex, which he tries to overcome with disingenuous and irrelevant prolix.

            And lastly, apparently he’s not American after all, he lives in one of the 33 dimensions in String Theory.

          • Peter Harris

            Oh, and I forgot to mention, all he has is his statistical models in the life.

          • Peter Harris

            I see, vaccine papers is too ignorant, well if that’s not the pot calling the kettle black.

          • Bored Now

            I see, vaccine papers is too ignorant

            About math, which is what his argument there was about.

          • Peter Harris

            You said little person, just let me remind you, that the world does revolve around maths, it revolves around truth, honesty and integrity.

            That’s something you have no concept of.

          • Bored Now

            VP’s argument, in this case was about math (and virtually all medical research about efficacy or safety depends on it). VP was wrong. That was the topic. Thanks. 🙂

          • Peter Harris

            In case you haven’t realised, maths are unimportant here.

          • Bored Now

            They were to the argument of VP’s I was referencing (and virtually all medical science too)….and since that’s what was being discussed it makes them rather important.

          • Peter Harris

            Can you specifically point out were vaccine papers has got it wrong?
            I cannot see it, maybe it’s buried somewhere in that mindless prolix of yours.

          • Peter Harris

            “That they are assuming that PK cell counts are normally distributed and that if vaccination causes autism or autism like features then it’s a Genetics + Environment effect.”

            And what about the scientific studies, to support this statement.

          • Peter Harris

            “Since virtually all conclusions in scientific papers of this sort depend on statistics.”

            Hardly, it relies on truth, integrity and objectivity, because if none of those criteria are met, then your statistical modelling is totally superfluous.

          • Peter Harris

            If you’re so confident of your argument, then why don’t you challenge vaccine papers directly? It seems to me, every time he challenges you, you go into your Hidey Hole.

      • Peter Harris

        “Which is why you can only come out and deal with criticism in the real(er) world in short periods before retreating to your hidey-hole. 🙂 ”

        Infantile non-sequitur.
        For all your b*******, you could have answered the question by now.

        • Bored Now

          Infantile non-sequitur.

          No it follows rather directly from the point I’m making about VP and the writer of this article having something in common. Mainly, assuming one knows more than one actually does (or more specifically has a higher degree of certainty). This leaves VP unable to integrate certain kinds of criticism. VP’s dissonance leads them to seek control. No different than other people who are critical of vaccines or evolution or the round earth and end of seeking or creating places where they have more control over the discourse.

          For all your b*******, you could have answered the question by now.

          This post of VP doesn’t ask a question other than “Where is the study?” and I actually provide that information.

          • Peter Harris

            And the funny thing?
            You’re just proving my point.

            And now you’re contradicting yourself.

            “Where is the study?
            I suspect there isn’t one.”

            Then you say this…

            “This post of VP doesn’t ask a question other than “Where is the study?” and I actually provide that information.”

            Oops.

            Just provide some factual links to your claims.

          • Bored Now

            “Where is the study?” and I actually provide that information.”

            Yep. I provide the information that there probably isn’t a study but the post is likely referencing an online survey done by Canine Health Concern.

            And now you’re contradicting yourself.

            How so? Tell you what, put my statements in a formal syllogism and demonstrate that there’s a contradiction. Otherwise, aren’t you the one making vague claims that you can’t support here? 🙂

          • Peter Harris

            “…probably isn’t a study but the post is likely referencing an online survey done by Canine Health Concern.”

            Then why are you ferociously defending the article?

            “Tell you what, put my statements in a formal syllogism and demonstrate that there’s a contradiction.”

            Sure…
            As I said, you are fiercely defending the merit behind this story, but you admit there is no scientific evidence to back up the story.

            And what about your attempts at non-sequiturs and ad hominem?

            “These folk are presuming they know more than they do.”

            I’m sure if us so called anti-vaxxers applied the same argument, you’d be jumping down our throats.

          • Bored Now

            Then why are you ferociously defending the article?

            ROFL. I’m not. Did you not read my initial post.

            Sure…

            Except you didn’t. Weird.

            As I said, you are fiercely defending the merit behind this story

            Nope. You just misread my post.

            And what about your attempts at non-sequiturs and ad hominem?

            I’m doing neither. Sorry.

            “These folk are presuming they know more than they do.”

            They are, it’s not ad hominem. Sorry.

          • Peter Harris

            “ROFL”

            Your best work?

            As I said, all you are doing is obfuscating with semantic nonsense.

          • Peter Harris

            Oh, one other thing, I asked you what is your intellectual and educational knowledge on this subject.

            No answer?

          • Bored Now

            “ROFL”

            Your best work?

            Lulz. You just realized you were completely and totally wrong about my defending this article. Didn’t you.
            Now you’re trying to save face. Double lulz.

            As I said, all you are doing is obfuscating with semantic nonsense.

            Each of your points I’ve provide a clear and reasonable response. So much so, that you can’t point out a single thing wrong with them — except to make a vague complaint.

            I asked you what is your intellectual and educational knowledge on this subject.

            Which subject?

          • Peter Harris

            You’re too foolish, to realise you is digging a bigger hole for yourself.

            And as I said, what is your intellectual an educational knowledge on the subject of vaccines, any answer?

          • Bored Now

            You’re too foolish, to realise you is digging a bigger hole for yourself.

            Isn’t this another vague reply? I’ll just point out again each and every one of your claims that I’ve made a logical flaw. You’ve been unable to provide a formal syllogism demonstrating that. Isn’t that interesting?

            And as I said, what is your intellectual an educational knowledge on the subject of vaccines

            As far as I can see you didn’t ask this question. What you did ask is what puts me in a position to judge VP’s intellectual and educational knowledge. However I don’t necessarily need specific knowledge of vaccines to do that. For someone complaining that people are “all over the place”. Your logic is pretty sloppy, just sayin’.

            As for having any specific formal education in vaccination? Nope. I’ve read hundreds of papers — mostly suggested by people critical of vaccination. What I do understand something about and have some formal education in is math. Either VP has no formal training in this or has forgotten it.

          • Peter Harris

            “Isn’t this another vague reply? I’ll just point out again each and every one of your claims that I’ve made a logical flaw. You’ve been unable to provide a formal syllogism demonstrating that.”

            I did, but you resorted to meaningless semantics in your replies.

            “As for having any specific formal education in vaccination? Nope.”

            Then why are you in a position, to troll him with Ad hominem over his “dim intellectual knowledge” on vaccines?

          • Bored Now

            I did

            Sorry, you have posted nothing which qualifies as a formal syllogism. I gave you a handy example last post. Hopefully that will help you out.

            resorted to meaningless semantics

            I simply explained how you were in error.

            Then why are you in a position, to troll him with Ad hominem over his “dim intellectual knowledge” on vaccines?

            Your statement here is a fallacy of plurium interrogationum. I’m not trolling VP. I’m also not making an ad hominem. However I am in a position to call VP-dim on certain subjects pertaining to vaccines for example interpreting studies often means knowing how statistics work. VP doesn’t.

          • Peter Harris

            We have a saying in Australia:
            “Baffling with b*******.”

            Specifically in your case, trying to sound intellectual with your copy and paste Latin.

            “However I am in a position to call VP-dim on certain subjects pertaining to vaccines for example interpreting studies often means knowing how statistics work.”

            And you are not equally dim?

          • Bored Now

            Specifically in your case, trying to sound intellectual with your copy and paste Latin.

            No, I actually know the names of a number of the formal and informal fallacies and what I described you actually did.

            And you are not equally dim?

            Not in the areas I’ve corrected VP on. VP may have read as many papers as I have, if so they probably haven’t understood them very well.

          • Peter Harris

            “Not in the areas I’ve corrected VP on. VP may have read as many papers as I have, if so they probably haven’t understood them very well.”

            And you are so objective, aren’t you?
            Hilarious.

            As I keep saying, do you want to get back the subject of the link between over vaccination and the death of pets?

          • Bored Now

            And you are so objective, aren’t you?

            I’m sufficiently knowledgeable in the areas I correct VP to notice that they’re being rather dim.

            do you want to get back the subject of the link between over vaccination and the death of pets?

            If you mean the claim that there’s some study somewhere but the only one they specifically link to as such is this thing by Canine Health Concern. You know that wasn’t the subject at hand. Right?

          • Peter Harris

            Still??

          • Bored Now

            Yep, all your goalpost shifting doesn’t change that I was keeping to the topic and whatever else you brought up.

            Now if you’re claiming that you drove this thread off the topic you wanted to discuss. That’s a different story.

          • Peter Harris

            What, my goal shifting? That’s hilarious.

          • Bored Now

            Well, every post of mine is entirely about a statement you’ve made. So if we’ve gone significantly “off topic” as you claim. Then that’s because you’re changing what you’re on about. 🙂

          • Peter Harris

            Again, sure, whatever you think.

          • Bored Now

            Well please point out where I’m not responding to statements of yours. So….

          • Peter Harris

            You are just repeating yourself with rhetorical questions, as I said, look at the thread of this discussion, and you will see that you want to engage in semantics and “look at me” Latin phrases.

          • Bored Now

            It’s not rhetorical, you are claiming I’ve taken the thread off topic. I’m claiming I’m only responding to you. The obvious place to show that it’s ME taking the thread away from the topic at hand is to show where I’m not responding directly to a statement of yours.

            If I am, then the only person who can be taking the thread off-topic is you. 🙂 Thanks.

          • Peter Harris

            You’re thanking me?
            Of course, more misdirection.

          • Bored Now

            Nope. Just pointing out the two mutually exclusive and collectively exhaustive options which should explain why asking for you to point out where I’ve not responded to something you said isn’t a rhetorical question but an important point.

          • Peter Harris

            Do you ever tire of misdirection and obfuscation?

          • Bored Now

            I don’t do either. So I’m sure I wouldn’t know.

          • Peter Harris

            It seems so, but as I asked you earlier, why do you take a strong interest in pro-vaccination?

          • Bored Now

            It seems so,

            As usual you can’t really demonstrate how anything I’ve said is misdirection or obfuscation.

            as I asked you earlier, why do you take a strong interest in pro-vaccination?

            I responded, please read the response there. 🙂

          • Peter Harris

            You were vague, as usual, but can you be specific?

          • Bored Now

            About what?

          • Peter Harris

            Haha, of course, it’s you who’s embarrassing yourself.

            Specifically, why you take an interest in pro-vaccination?

          • Peter Harris

            “I’m significantly knowledgeable”

            And specifically, what is your knowledge on this topic?

          • Bored Now

            As I said I have some understanding of and formal education in math, statistical analysis. Which are pretty important to interpreting a study.

          • Peter Harris

            Ok, then it appears that vaccine papers knows quite a deal more than you.

          • Bored Now

            Oh, how so?

          • Peter Harris

            I have been reading his knowledge, as compared to your knowledge, via reading both of your comments, here, and on other threads.
            And there’s one thing that makes VP more respectable and realistic, and that is his intimate knowledge of vaccines at a chemical level, but the most obvious thing is, he doesn’t have any skin in the game, he’s not part of the global Industrial/Pharmaceutical Medical/Complex.

          • Bored Now

            his intimate knowledge of vaccines at a chemical level,

            Please provide a specific example VP talking about something about vaccines at a chemical level which is not elementary.

            but the most obvious thing is, he doesn’t have any skin in the game, he’s not part of the global Industrial/Pharmaceutical Medical/Complex.

            How am I a part of that?

          • Peter Harris

            That’s my opinion, based on what he discusses such as adjuvants in vaccines.

            “How am I a part of that?”

            As so often, people such as yourself, use this as a misdirection.

            I never once suggested that you were/are part of the medical profession, I’m just pointing out, that Vaccine papers is objective, and is not beholden to any corporate interests.

          • Bored Now

            such as adjuvants in vaccines.

            Can you point out something specific that VP has said about adjuvants which isn’t elementary or simply easily googled?

            I never once suggested

            Remember the topic here is how VP compares to me. If you’re going to make the claim

            but the most obvious thing is, he doesn’t have any skin in the game, he’s not part of the global Industrial/Pharmaceutical Medical/Complex.

            The only time this would matter in a comparison between VP and I on the subject of who is more respectable and realistic is if this was actually a difference. So yeah your statements do suggest that I either have corporate interest in vaccines. So you should rephrase or clarify.

            I’m just pointing out, that Vaccine papers is objective

            Actually there’s no reason to believe this.

            and is not beholden to any corporate interests.

            While it might be reasonable to assume that VP is probably not beholden to pharmaceutical corporate interests that doesn’t mean VP is not beholden to any.

          • Peter Harris

            “Can you point out something specific that VP has said about adjuvants which isn’t elementary or simply easily googled?”

            I’m impressed by the way he puts all his information together in a cogent and understandable way.

            http://vaccinepapers.org

            “While it might be reasonable to assume that VP is probably not beholden to pharmaceutical corporate interests that doesn’t mean VP is not beholden to any.”

            Well let’s see, and we should ask him.

            And why do you have such a strong interest in pro-vaccination?

          • Bored Now

            I’m impressed by the way he puts all his information together in a cogent and understandable way.

            In other words you can’t point to something that isn’t elementary. Which leaves your point that VP has “intimate knowledge at a chemical level” to be rather unsupported. Also you can’t seem to respond to the point that VP still needs to correctly interpret studies which requires math which VP seems rather lacking in. Otherwise VP could easily be putting something entirely incorrect in an “cogent and understandable way”.

            Well let’s see, and we should ask him.

            Why?

            And why do you have such a strong interest in pro-vaccination?

            Another plurium interrogationum. If you actually read my posts like you claim you did, you would see I generally point out peoples errors in reasoning and logic and in particular math or interpretation of math (such as in studies). I support things commensurate with the statistical strength of the evidence.

          • Peter Harris

            You asked me can I point to something related to the chemicals in vaccines, and I’ve done that, and I’ve made the general point about the chemical information in vaccine papers website.

          • Bored Now

            Well first I asked you to point out something that isn’t elementary. Your response was “discussing adjuvants in vaccines.” now unless everyone who discusses adjuvants in vaccines have in your mind “intimate knowledge at a chemical level” of vaccines. Then your point that VP has this is still unsupported.

          • Peter Harris

            More knot tying? You asked me specifically why I like vaccine papers, and he’s chemical analysis of vaccines, and there you are.

          • Bored Now

            You asked me specifically why I like vaccine papers

            Nope, you claimed “vaccine papers knows quite a deal more than you.” and I asked why. Notice this isn’t about “liking” VP. You claimed that it was because of VP’s “intimate knowledge of vaccines at a chemical level”. I asked you for an specific example and you can’t give one. So your statement that VP has a “intimate knowledge of vaccines at a chemical level” is unsupported which consequentially leaves your position that “vaccine papers knows quite a deal more than you.” as also unsupported thus far. Thanks.

          • Peter Harris

            “So your statement that VP has a “intimate knowledge of vaccines at a chemical level” is unsupported which consequentially leaves your position that “vaccine papers knows quite a deal more than you.” as also unsupported thus far. Thanks.”

            Not at all, quite the opposite, and your desperation to look intelligent, you have not rebutted anything.

          • Bored Now

            Sadly your arguments are exactly how I portrayed them and you have not provided support for them in this thread. So my point stands.

            Not at all, quite the opposite

            Ah well as Michael Palin might say “an argument isn’t just contradiction”.

            Thanks.

          • Peter Harris

            Michael Palin?
            Misdirection number 17.

          • Bored Now

            Nope.

          • Bored Now

            No, it’s an appropriate witticism.

          • Peter Harris

            Misdirection number 24.

          • Peter Harris

            Where is your website for a total rebuttal?

          • Bored Now

            Total rebuttal of what? I’ve already rebutted your argument that “vaccine papers knows quite a dal more than you”. You may still think that however you’ve provided no (unrefuted) argument for that.

          • Peter Harris

            vaccine papers has put together a very comprehensive website, so why don’t you go and dismantle it point by point?

            That’s if you are consistent, with your line of argument.

          • Bored Now

            That’s if you are consistent, with your line of argument.

            Please provide a formal syllogism stemming from one of my arguments that necessitates my building the “anti-vaccine papers”.

          • Peter Harris

            Misdirection number 26.

          • Peter Harris

            Misdirection number 22.

          • Bored Now

            Nope, just a clarifying statement.

          • Peter Harris

            Misdirection number 30.
            Why don’t we go for an even 100 while we’re here.

          • Peter Harris

            And guess what, I can apply the same reply that you posted earlier…

            “Ah well as Michael Palin might say “an argument isn’t just contradiction”.

          • Bored Now

            Sadly you can’t. Since I’m not merely contradicting you. 🙂

          • Peter Harris

            Misdirection number 25.

          • Peter Harris

            ” I support things commensurate with the statistical strength of the evidence.”

            Ok, so what have you got?

          • Bored Now

            About what?

          • Peter Harris

            Hahaha, you are a fool, just proof that you just want to perpetuate this, for some little egotistical pride.

            If you cannot keep up with the thread of a conversation, I’ll ask you specifically, what’s the statistical evidence you rely on to make your case for pro vaccines?

          • Bored Now

            just proof that you just want to perpetuate this, for some little egotistical pride.

            I just like to understand what question I’m answering. Especially since you’re kind of sloppy with your logic.

            I’ll ask you specifically, what’s the statistical evidence you rely on to make your case for pro vaccines?

            Case in point. To me “pro-vaccine” would mean that I am for ANY vaccine in ANY capacity. Which is incorrect. For example, I’m not currently in favor of any of the Dengue vaccines and I was critical of the funding of Zostivax in Ontario. So you might want to be more specific.

          • Peter Harris

            Slippery eel.
            Ok, why do you generally support vaccines?
            Simple question.

          • Bored Now

            Slippery eel.

            So I’m somehow responsible for you poorly phrasing your questions? Do I have to do that for you too?

            Ok, why do you generally support vaccines?
            Simple question.

            Apparently I do need to do this for you. I think you want to ask a different question. I’ve already said that I support things commensurate with their statistical strength. A better question might be something like asking about a specific vaccine and saying where and when do I advocate it and what evidence makes that point.

            There’s nothing more amusing than having someone who claims to be critical of vaccines constantly express or imply deception when someone thinks that the evidence for each vaccine needs to be weighed individually.

            So you spend some time figuring out what you want to say and I’ll get back to you later. 🙂

          • Peter Harris

            Misdirection number 23.

          • Peter Harris

            Clearly the question speaks for itself, didn’t you say you had a background in statistics?

          • Bored Now

            I do have a background and as I explain elsewhere it’s not that clear. 🙂

          • Peter Harris

            As clear as mud, however, let’s move on…

            “Just like vaccinations for humans, the number of scheduled vaccinations cats and dogs now receive has gone through the roof compared to previous generations.”

            In your opinion, why do you think that is?

          • Bored Now

            As clear as mud

            I pointed out pretty clearly how your question was ambiguous and I provided examples. Funny how those are suddenly not clear but you can’t say why. 🙂

            In your opinion, why do you think that is?

            Well first define what we mean by the number of scheduled vaccinations. Do we simply mean the number of shots? If so, why is that the most meaningful measure as compared to something like antigen count?

          • Peter Harris

            As the statement is written in the article.

          • Bored Now

            The statement is written without any useful information to interpret it. So what is there to say?

          • Peter Harris

            Misdirection number 19.

          • Bored Now

            Nope. The site clearly doesn’t give any context which would make the statement they made useful.

          • Peter Harris

            Misdirection number 27.

      • Peter Harris

        Are you going to come out of your hidey hole and answer questions?

        • Bored Now

          I’ve been answering questions and responding to you quite a bit. Now if you phrased your questions better or could respond to requests for clarification with information that is useful to me. Things would go more quickly. 🙂

          • Peter Harris

            You’ve been delaying with more misdirections, you haven’t answered a thing…what a fool you are. 🙂

      • Peter Harris

        “So, what are the SPECIFIC errors you allege? Be specific and cite scientific studies.”

        For all your foolishness and prolix, you are still avoiding this question.

        • Bored Now

          I gave a list of specific errors. Then in a later response to VP I gave a specific example of the kind of reasoning errors I’m talking about. If you didn’t read them, that’s really not my fault.

          • Peter Harris

            I think you are confusing somebody else, you haven’t given anything, accept your self flagellation.

          • Bored Now

            You only have to read. It’s all there. 🙂

          • Peter Harris

            Oh, I’ve read all your circular prolix, but no conclusions…no surprise really.

          • Bored Now

            Well apparently you didn’t understand it then but you know that. The whole reason you’re not asking for me to cite where I gave an answer and a specific example is because you know it’s there.

            Thanks for making things easy for me.

          • Peter Harris

            More prolix? More inability to understand simple English?

          • Bored Now

            More prolix? More inability to understand simple English?

            This is sort of like watching someone pretending they’re deaf when they don’t like or don’t understand what they hear.

            Yawn. VP asked a question about errors. I gave VP a list. VP after that asked for an example. VP got one. It’s easy to see if you read and of course you know this because I pointed it out to you before. So evidence would suggest that your faffing about is trying to avoid these facts for some reason.

          • Peter Harris

            Why do you quote me, and then go right ahead and prove me correct?
            Are you just that stupid, or you are really… dare I say, a little retarded?

          • Bored Now

            Why do you quote me, and then go right ahead and prove me correct?

            Oh, how am I proving you correct? Formal syllogism, if you can manage it

          • Peter Harris

            Your not just proving me correct, you’re proving everybody correct, because everybody can see that you’re a wannabe nobody.

          • Bored Now

            …and yet you can’t point how I’m proving you correct. Let alone anyone else. Again formal logic is your friend… 🙂

          • Peter Harris

            And you’re married to informal nonsense.

          • Bored Now

            However you still can’t produce any formal rationale for your claim that I’m proving you correct.

          • Peter Harris

            Because you continue with your self absorbed disingenuous circular claptrap.

          • Bored Now

            Sorry but my behavior shouldn’t make you unable to demonstrate your point about my behavior. Thanks. 🙂

          • Peter Harris

            No worries, your behaviour doesn’t affect me, so don’t flatter yourself.

          • Peter Harris

            You really are a one trick pony, that’s suddenly become little lame.

          • Bored Now

            Yawn, change of subject again.

          • Peter Harris

            Ha ha ha ha…
            You really are having one of those pot-kettle days aren’t you.

          • Bored Now

            You changed the subject. It’s the simple truth. Thanks. 🙂

          • Peter Harris

            Is it pot-kettle day in the states?

          • Bored Now

            No idea. Ask someone who lives there.

          • Peter Harris

            Sorry I forgot, you live in an alternate universe.

          • Bored Now

            No but I don’t live in the US. Thanks.

  • My hovercraft is full of eels

    Fairly certain the author had way too many dog vaccines.
    Possibly the stupidity thing I have ever read.

  • http://www.backinthebush.wordpress.com/ Cyndy Bush

    The link titled “vaccines can even make your dog autistic” leads to an article that literally says the EXACT opposite. There’s no consensus on whether or not dogs can even have autism, but regardless, that article plainly states that vaccines DO NOT cause autism in humans nor animals.
    Laziness, inaccurate “reporting”, and outright lies. What a fine “journalist” you are!

  • Valerie Hartsfield

    I kept looking for comments about Veterinarians and PETS. Alas, the comments are all about children and autism and who is right and who is wrong about vaccines. Maybe somebody has something to say about the article, but I got tired of looking. Sheesh.

  • Joy

    After our poms were over 10 yrs., the Vet didn’t give anything but the one for kennel cough because I got our girls groomed. We had to have the Rabies because NY says so.

  • Jackie Marshall

    I can’t figure out where this “new study” is. Anybody have a citation?

  • Vicky Brown

    i have heard this before . i had two dogs who were large i gave them there shots my self,until i could no longer buy it . one was 53 lb the other was 90 lb they lived to be 17 and 16 years old no health problems.i now have a 30 lb dog and have to take her every year for vact, because she like,s to taste people. she has many problems with health.

  • Diana

    What I have found out is that many states force veterinarians to give the vaccinations or they will have to pay fines and possibly lose their license. So for some vets it’s fear and not necessarily greed driving this push for vaccinations. I’m so glad this information is finally coming out as it has been known for many years (20+ years). My sister in law worked at NIH for many years. She had many friends who did research and actually developed some of these vaccines. What’s interesting is that these same NIH vets do not give their senior cats (house cats) the vaccinations due to problems/likely side effects. I’ve had cats my entire life. I grew up on a farm, so it wasn’t unusual for us to have 20 or more cats. We frequently had 8-10 cats that were house cats. NEVER did we have to deal with cancer in any of the animals…, never! I am now almost 60 years old and over the past 20 years out of the last 6 cats I’ve had 3 have died from cancer and the other two died from the effects of hyperthyroidism. I never had issues with cats having cancer or hyperthyroidism before! Something’s got to be going on! When I told our vet that I would not be getting any more vaccinations for our last cat (who is 16 years old), I was told they’d report me to the authorities! Seriously!? That was ridiculous but not unheard of in the profession. We no longer will be going to see that vet!